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Old 18-01-2015, 06:56   #826
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

What comes to Yrwind it's not nor it should be RCD compliant in any way becouse RCD literally excludes DIY boats. This just means it cannot be sold right away. The builder can sail where ever he likes..
Dunno how any country can deny anyone sailing offshore whatever they write in their law. A bit out their borders..
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Old 18-01-2015, 09:04   #827
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
What comes to Yrwind it's not nor it should be RCD compliant in any way becouse RCD literally excludes DIY boats. This just means it cannot be sold right away. The builder can sail where ever he likes..
Dunno how any country can deny anyone sailing offshore whatever they write in their law. A bit out their borders..

The RCD actually specifically has two provisions for diy boats , either wait 5 years and you can sell it. Or you can now have a post construction assessment done and on completion acid the CE plate. In my experience any sort of expensive diy job will use the post construction process as having RCD. Approval helps resale values

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Old 18-01-2015, 09:05   #828
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The competency is not from the builder but from the NA and it is extremely difficult to approve a boat with less than 30ft.

As you can see, regarding the requirement of a class A boat for bluewater sailing in Spain it is the same as Portugal.
http://cinco-oceanos.com/ayudas/Equi...bligatorio.pdf
Out of 60nm from the coast only class A sailboats are allowed. I believe that in Italy it is the same.

You guys sometimes are funny: You say that the requirements of ClassA are too low to allow bluewater sailing but then you say that all boast should be allowed to go anywhere. No problem, they have an Epirb and the ones that pay taxes will pay for their rescues

The few countries that specifically limit boats on categories typically always had some form of categorisation. Certainly France has. What I meant was that the RCD was never setup or designed to used in that way by the EU.


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Old 18-01-2015, 10:19   #829
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
What comes to Yrwind it's not nor it should be RCD compliant in any way becouse RCD literally excludes DIY boats. This just means it cannot be sold right away. The builder can sail where ever he likes..
Dunno how any country can deny anyone sailing offshore whatever they write in their law. A bit out their borders..
That is valid but only regarding to sold it, not to sail it. That has nothing to do with the RCD but with the Swedish law that demands a certification on boats to be sailed according the RCD certification.

You are right about being very difficult to catch someone crossing an ocean on a boat not allowed to do it, but one thing is doing that within the law other outside the law.
If someone is rescued from a boat that is not allowed to sail (by law) where he is sailing I don't know what will happen to the prevaricator but I guess not something good.

Regarding DIY boats they are out of the scope of the directive. If they can be used or not by the owner and how it depends on the laws of each particular state. It seems that in Sweden the boats to be used had to be certified for a given use according to the RCD. It is not different from Portugal or Spain. It was what was said to Sven.
Any boat, even one DIY can be subjected for certification and if certified it can be used or sold in any EC country:

In Britain for instance he would have no problem at all in trying to circumnavigate on a bath tube.

"2. The following shall be excluded from the scope of this Directive:
....
A member of the general public building his own boat (in his garage or garden, for example), from materials bought on the open market is deemed to be “building a boat for his own use”. This boat lies outside the scope of the Directive and does not require compliance with the essential requirements and thus CE marking.
"

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/secto...feb2008_en.pdf
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Old 18-01-2015, 10:36   #830
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The few countries that specifically limit boats on categories typically always had some form of categorisation. Certainly France has. What I meant was that the RCD was never setup or designed to used in that way by the EU.
You mean to limit the use of boats in what concerns the conditions specified in each category?

Here we disagree. If EC certifies a product to be used on certain circumstances it makes no sense to allow products that would not have passed that certification to be used on those conditions. It will not only endanger the life of the owner as the one of the passengers as well has it will incur on unacceptable risk of costing a fortune in rescue costs that will be payed by all tax payers.
In the end it is about knowing when social responsibility should go over personal liberty an about that it seems that opinions varies.
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Old 18-01-2015, 11:08   #831
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pirate Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That is valid but only regarding to sold it, not to sail it. That has nothing to do with the RCD but with the Swedish law that demands a certification on boats to be sailed according the RCD certification.

You are right about being very difficult to catch someone crossing an ocean on a boat not allowed to do it, but one thing is doing that within the law other outside the law.
If someone is rescued from a boat that is not allowed to sail (by law) where he is sailing I don't know what will happen to the prevaricator but I guess not something good.

Regarding DIY boats they are out of the scope of the directive. If they can be used or not by the owner and how it depends on the laws of each particular state. It seems that in Sweden the boats to be used had to be certified for a given use according to the RCD. It is not different from Portugal or Spain. It was what was said to Sven.
Any boat, even one DIY can be subjected for certification and if certified it can be used or sold in any EC country:

In Britain for instance he would have no problem at all in trying to circumnavigate on a bath tube.

"2. The following shall be excluded from the scope of this Directive:
....
A member of the general public building his own boat (in his garage or garden, for example), from materials bought on the open market is deemed to be “building a boat for his own use”. This boat lies outside the scope of the Directive and does not require compliance with the essential requirements and thus CE marking.
"

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/secto...feb2008_en.pdf
Amazing.. I've sailed 19-21ftrs all over.. France.. Spain.. Portugal.. across the Channel, Biscay... Med...
Hell.. I'm even a Portuguese resident... no arrests.. no examinations of the boat..
Oh... I tell a lie.. a French official seemed to consider it an impossible feat to cross the Channel in a Tiki 21 (home built) without a GPS...
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Old 18-01-2015, 11:36   #832
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Amazing.. I've sailed 19-21ftrs all over.. France.. Spain.. Portugal.. across the Channel, Biscay... Med...
Hell.. I'm even a Portuguese resident... no arrests.. no examinations of the boat..
Oh... I tell a lie.. a French official seemed to consider it an impossible feat to cross the Channel in a Tiki 21 (home built) without a GPS...
Not, not amazing since you sail a boat with a British flag and therefore the laws that applies to your boat are British ones.
If you had sailed on a British bath tube with documents and British flagged, no problems too.

No, if you change your boat to Portuguese flag, well you will have certainly problems in what regards the register of the boat for offshore use and will also have the boat mandatory inspected regularly. Also you will have to prove that you have aboard all the security material requeired by law for sailing offshore, that is if they approve the boat for being register as offshore. For boats made after the RCD class A is mandatory. I don't know about older boats.
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Old 18-01-2015, 12:11   #833
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
You mean to limit the use of boats in what concerns the conditions specified in each category?

Here we disagree. If EC certifies a product to be used on certain circumstances it makes no sense to allow products that would not have passed that certification to be used on those conditions. It will not only endanger the life of the owner as the one of the passengers as well has it will incur on unacceptable risk of costing a fortune in rescue costs that will be payed by all tax payers.
In the end it is about knowing when social responsibility should go over personal liberty an about that it seems that opinions varies.

What I mean, is that EU RCD was never introduced as a means of controlling the activities of boat buyers. That has been national governments doing . It is not appropriate to use a simplified. Category system as a means to determine sailing area


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Old 18-01-2015, 12:12   #834
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

And changing subject a hot new: For the first time Bavaria won the title of best mass production of the year (family boat) on the European contest with the Cruiser 46 but more important than to have won is why it has won. The comments are from the jury composed by test sailors from many of the best European sailing magazines:

"In a highly competitive class Cruiser 46 won in the end because it is among the many strong candidates the boat with the highest solidity and robustness. She sails very well balanced with lots of space and many different layouts. Like all Bavaria's it offers excellent value for money - and raised respect in what refers workmanship and equipment standards."

Well, maybe this answers Robert's question on the other thread




Note that on the videos nobody talks about the boat structure (that is not what sells boats) but it seems that what I was saying regarding Bavaria building stronger boats was what lead the jury to choose this boat over the others that were selected on this category, namely the Dufour 310 GL, the Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 349 the Nautitech 40 and the RM 890.

I don't think they are being fair in what regards robustness regarding the RM 890 but that is another story.
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Old 18-01-2015, 12:13   #835
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That is valid but only regarding to sold it, not to sail it. That has nothing to do with the RCD but with the Swedish law that demands a certification on boats to be sailed according the RCD certification.
I tried to search such Swedish law but didn't find any trace..
He was however in a boat exhibition with his boat so reckon it was thought to be for sale without CE certification.
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Old 18-01-2015, 12:16   #836
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
What I mean, is that EU RCD was never introduced as a means of controlling the activities of boat buyers. That has been national governments doing . It is not appropriate to use a simplified. Category system as a means to determine sailing area
I agree on the first two points and I disagree on the last. The RCD is all but simplified category system and it is the best available tool to evaluate boats.

It seems you don't know the RCD annexes where all "complication" is. If you want (and if i can find them) I can send them to you.
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Old 18-01-2015, 12:38   #837
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Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I agree on the first two points and I disagree on the last. The RCD is all but simplified category system and it is the best available tool to evaluate boats.



It seems you don't know the RCD annexes where all "complication" is. If you want (and if i can find them) I can send them to you.

I have the PDF of the RCD on my ipad, the annexes add little. , plus the 2013 additions and all annexes

People think the RCD was about boat safety and standards of construction , ie a customer , sailor type of standards. Nothing could be further from the truth., it's primarily a way of preventing countries from making it difficult to sell another countries boats by using national standards or national assessment procedures.

The ISO standards are great well thought engineered standards. But they are voluntary , just like ABYC. .they are actually far better and more compressive then the ABYC.

The RCD standards say things like " opening should be weather proof " , or on seacocks that they should have a shut off , or on strength , the vessel " should have adequate strength " etc

What should have happened was that the ISO specs should have been developed first and then the RCD could have referenced them.

Maybe in time , it will . But right now it's an " aspirational specification"

The biggest singke issue most manufacturers had with the RCD was meeting the manufacturing and quality documentation system requirements , this was especially true of smaller manufacturers.

The easiest thing , and yes above 30 feet ( the smaller boats suffer in relation to numbers carried and their effect on stability , not due to hull strength or innate stability ) was to pass the NB tests for the boat.

But there no point to this debate. I will contend that there is no evidence that the RCD was introduced as a result of anything to do with boat safety per se , you seem to beleive otherwise , that's that.



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Old 18-01-2015, 12:42   #838
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Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
And changing subject a hot new: For the first time Bavaria won the title of best mass production of the year (family boat) on the European contest with the Cruiser 46 but more important than to have won is why it has won. The comments are from the jury composed by test sailors from many of the best European sailing magazines:



"In a highly competitive class Cruiser 46 won in the end because it is among the many strong candidates the boat with the highest solidity and robustness. She sails very well balanced with lots of space and many different layouts. Like all Bavaria's it offers excellent value for money - and raised respect in what refers workmanship and equipment standards."



Well, maybe this answers Robert's question on the other thread









Note that on the videos nobody talks about the boat structure (that is not what sells boats) but it seems that what I was saying regarding Bavaria building stronger boats was what lead the jury to choose this boat over the others that were selected on this category, namely the Dufour 310 GL, the Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 349 the Nautitech 40 and the RM 890.



I don't think they are being fair in what regards robustness regarding the RM 890 but that is another story.

Nice boat , I have been on it

Mind you what's " stronger" mean. , stronger then what ?, perhaps the journalists after a nice lunch, some canapés , were handed a press statement that read

" Baveria is making strong boats , stronger then ever before " , , really strong in fact

Then the magazine sends Baveria the monthly ad bill of course

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Old 18-01-2015, 12:46   #839
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I tried to search such Swedish law but didn't find any trace..
He was however in a boat exhibition with his boat so reckon it was thought to be for sale without CE certification.
Came on, everybody knows Sven in Sweden, he is famous and if you know his boats you would know that nobody would thought that was intended for sale. Besides Sven was very specific and certainly we would have not mistaken that:

"I have also been talking in Norrköping, the site of The Swedish Transport Agency. Nice and friendly people but some of the laws they try to enforce are ridicules....When I exhibited my boat in Stockholm I got a note stating that I was forbidden to sell it or use it".
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Old 18-01-2015, 12:57   #840
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

I own a Bavaria 36 Cruiser and have been very pleased with it, with one exception.

It has an extreem weather helm under bare poles in high wind (over 40 knots).

I will be in Dusseldorf next week picking the brains of people to find a good solution.

One idea is to install a cutter stay (moveable) and use a storm jib in such conditions. I believe the weather helm is due to the windage of the hull itself, as the boat has high freeboard.
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