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Old 15-01-2015, 10:35   #781
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes I agree more complicated technology is more prone to failure then a simpler one and all is a compromise between reliability and advantages of a bigger efficiency. We would all be still using sextants and non furling sails if we all opted for max reliability instead of the better compromise between reliability and efficiency.

I do however agree that a greater number of spares and redundant systems has to be carried if you chose efficiency over simplicity and that's also the case regarding autopilot versus windvane.

Actually as an electronics engineer of many years, Id have to disagree with you. reliability of modern technical systems has increased dramatically with modern integrated circuits, advanced production systems and better components. ( in general not just boats)

There are two issues really at play in the potential unreliability of on-board electronics and their associated systems

firstly is the cost. People fit the cheapest of options they can get away with, this is especially through of autopilots, then the unit is never inspected, never serviced and lives in a dark hole till it fails.

Secondly is the quality of installation. in my experience, boats installers know next to nothing about good electronics installations, wiring is in the dark ages, and its generally even worse if owner installed.

Ive sailed the atlantic twice with a standard `Raymarine linear electric arm. worked faultlessly each time, often in use for 19-20 days straight.

In fact looking back over the various deliveries, Id say the autopilot was generally not the problematic area, nor was the electronics in general. More hassles we're had with rigging, engines, furling etc, then the " technology"

On the one journey , where we had a wind vane, It proved troublesome in handling the boat down wind in big seas, in then broke a little cog in a gearbox, that we couldn't really fix and it remained out of service , thank god we had a real autopilot !!!.

YMMV
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Old 15-01-2015, 10:42   #782
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Another Mass production boat circumnavigating, the Beneteau Oceanis 50 Cozy too with a French couple. They are sailing since 2010 and after having sailed extensively the med are now on the Caribbean before continuing to other cruising destinations to the West.







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Old 15-01-2015, 11:14   #783
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

And another 3 year Circumnavigation, this one particularly interesting in what regards the boat preparation. A A French young couple on a small Beneteau Oceanis 331.







Gwen Ru, un tour du monde en voilierPréparation
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Old 15-01-2015, 11:18   #784
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Actually as an electronics engineer of many years, Id have to disagree with you. reliability of modern technical systems has increased dramatically with modern integrated circuits, advanced production systems and better components. ( in general not just boats)

There are two issues really at play in the potential unreliability of on-board electronics and their associated systems

firstly is the cost. People fit the cheapest of options they can get away with, this is especially through of autopilots, then the unit is never inspected, never serviced and lives in a dark hole till it fails.

Secondly is the quality of installation. in my experience, boats installers know next to nothing about good electronics installations, wiring is in the dark ages, and its generally even worse if owner installed.

Ive sailed the atlantic twice with a standard `Raymarine linear electric arm. worked faultlessly each time, often in use for 19-20 days straight.

In fact looking back over the various deliveries, Id say the autopilot was generally not the problematic area, nor was the electronics in general. More hassles we're had with rigging, engines, furling etc, then the " technology"

On the one journey , where we had a wind vane, It proved troublesome in handling the boat down wind in big seas, in then broke a little cog in a gearbox, that we couldn't really fix and it remained out of service , thank god we had a real autopilot !!!.

YMMV
Dave
Cost of redundancy is certainly one issue.

Although I don't disagree that generally electronics are reliable, that starts to deteriorate in more challenging environments, which the ocean certainly is. I'm aware of numerous anecdotal complaints of vehicle breakdowns caused by all the electronic components in the northern oil patch in the bush. Not only is the recovery expensive, the fix is exceedingly so.

Which underlines my point of I love my electronics on my boat, but if there is a simpler backup or way of doing things, it needs to be part of the failsafe solution. And cost is a huge part of the constraints.

Again, the trend towards the open sterns negate the use of a windvave, and I believe it to be a safety factor.

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Old 15-01-2015, 12:08   #785
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Again, the trend towards the open sterns negate the use of a windvave, and I believe it to be a safety factor.
Open sterns do not negate windvanes:



And an open stern is a safety factor, as it becomes easier to get someone back on board...
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Old 15-01-2015, 12:23   #786
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Open sterns do not negate windvanes:


Thanks, good find.

Quote:

And an open stern is a safety factor, as it becomes easier to get someone back on board...
But it would be better if that someone would not be in a situation where they fell off on the first place.

I see some advantages of an open stern, but see too many concerns raised by them.

And seriously, what is it with these double helms on smaller yachts? It's not like it's exactly difficult to steer from the center line of them, is it? All it seems to be doing with the open sterns and the double wheels is that attempt to emulate the styling of the VOR ocean going racers, and that is not worth cruising is all about.

Its like those kids who put the ridiculous little fins on the back of their rice rockets because they think it looks cool, yet there's no downward pressure that helps any cornering at all. In most cases there is a lot of show and no go with the styling cues.


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Old 15-01-2015, 14:35   #787
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
...

And seriously, what is it with these double helms on smaller yachts? It's not like it's exactly difficult to steer from the center line of them, is it? All it seems to be doing with the open sterns and the double wheels is that attempt to emulate the styling of the VOR ocean going racers, and that is not worth cruising is all about.

Its like those kids who put the ridiculous little fins on the back of their rice rockets because they think it looks cool, yet there's no downward pressure that helps any cornering at all. In most cases there is a lot of show and no go with the styling cues.
...
Now that the question of the windvane and open transoms is settled you jump to another one : two wheels on a small cruising boat. I don't understand from where that comes since the yellow boat with windvane has a a tiller.

Anyway I can try to explain why many prefer the two heels, starting with racing (the first small ones that first appeared with them where performance cruisers). Regarding those that are used for club racing, a friend, an American racer, explained to me that they offer advantages even in relatively small boats in what regards racing. Certainly there would be here more informed people around here to explain why since I don't race.

Regarding cruising and give the modern beamy boats, the only way of sitting on the right place while sailing a sailboat is or with a big wheel with two wheels or with a tiller and that even on a 30ft boat.

Regarding a tiller versus a wheel it is a question of personal taste, even in what regards top professional sailors.

Regarding using a wheel, two wheels offer a much better passage forward to the Welshman or in an out of the boat while on port and here probably counts the fact that most of the sailboats being on the Med where almost all moor with the transom to the quay.

Here you can see that even on a modern 31ft they offer more comfort in what regards a better position at the wheel.

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Old 15-01-2015, 15:01   #788
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Thanks, good find.



But it would be better if that someone would not be in a situation where they fell off on the first place.

I see some advantages of an open stern, but see too many concerns raised by them.

And seriously, what is it with these double helms on smaller yachts? It's not like it's exactly difficult to steer from the center line of them, is it? All it seems to be doing with the open sterns and the double wheels is that attempt to emulate the styling of the VOR ocean going racers, and that is not worth cruising is all about.

Its like those kids who put the ridiculous little fins on the back of their rice rockets because they think it looks cool, yet there's no downward pressure that helps any cornering at all. In most cases there is a lot of show and no go with the styling cues.


Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app



Many of these boats are so beamy that if you stand on the centerline, where a normal helm would be, you can't see over the windward side once the heel exceeds 10-15 degrees. Hence the need for a windward helm.
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Old 15-01-2015, 15:07   #789
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

This whole argument entertains me, mostly because it has been going on for over a hundred years. Just read what Chappelle had to say about sharpies, which have many similarities to today's "production boat", ie cheaper lighter construction, wide beam, flatter bottoms, chines, beam carried aft, faster, less longevity, less seakindly. Same damn argument.
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Old 15-01-2015, 15:23   #790
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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When is the last time you've heard of a wind vane failing?
Three of our friends have had theirs fail on passages. Repairs were difficult - involving sourcing stainless and doing tricky welding in far-flung places. These may be the only three in the world, though…

Most of the people we meet with windvanes are mainly using their "backup" electronic autopilots. They still vehemently believe in, and defend, windvanes - but they are mostly using their electronic autopilots. Like pretty much always.

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Old 15-01-2015, 15:29   #791
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
This whole argument entertains me, mostly because it has been going on for over a hundred years. Just read what Chappelle had to say about sharpies, which have many similarities to today's "production boat", ie cheaper lighter construction, wide beam, flatter bottoms, chines, beam carried aft, faster, less longevity, less seakindly. Same damn argument.
Quite so, and I seem to remember reading of arguments between the "plank on edge" and the "skimming dish" schools of yacht design in the UK in much the same time frame.

And re the difficulty in seeing over the heeled gunnel from a central steering place: I get a bit of that even with our fairly moderate beam (13'10"), helped by weather cloths on the aft rails. I find myself sitting on the cockpit coamings for visibility when sailing hard to windward, barely able to reach the wheel and kinda awkwardly at that. I reckon that on a "Sense" shaped yacht it would be a serious problem without the dual wheels.

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Old 15-01-2015, 15:42   #792
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Now that the question of the windvane and open transoms is settled you jump to another one : two wheels on a small cruising boat. I don't understand from where that comes since the yellow boat with windvane has a a tiller.

Anyway I can try to explain why many prefer the two heels, starting with racing (the first small ones that first appeared with them where performance cruisers). Regarding those that are used for club racing, a friend, an American racer, explained to me that they offer advantages even in relatively small boats in what regards racing. Certainly there would be here more informed people around here to explain why since I don't race.

Regarding cruising and give the modern beamy boats, the only way of sitting on the right place while sailing a sailboat is or with a big wheel with two wheels or with a tiller and that even on a 30ft boat.

Regarding a tiller versus a wheel it is a question of personal taste, even in what regards top professional sailors.

Regarding using a wheel, two wheels offer a much better passage forward to the Welshman or in an out of the boat while on port and here probably counts the fact that most of the sailboats being on the Med where almost all moor with the transom to the quay.

Here you can see that even on a modern 31ft they offer more comfort in what regards a better position at the wheel.

Polux you really need to upgrade your resume.

The French yachting industry should hire you as there number one marketing consultant. Quit doing it for free!

I appreciate your comments, I just don't agree with all of them. But thanks for your persistence.

Now go work on that resume so you can get paid for your enthusiasm.
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Old 15-01-2015, 15:43   #793
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

I guess our catamaran is an "open stern" because it has large sugar scoops in each hull leading right to the water. We don't take waves up these underway (sometimes a bit of a splash, though). Even running in large seas. It is SO much easier boarding them than trying to climb up a 4' closed transom from the water.

Many catamarans have actual open sterns, and not just sugar scoops - and many of these are low to the water to the extent of an open stern mono (sigh). I have yet to talk with an owner who has made passages awash up to his waist in them.

I don't understand people's claim that open transoms are a safety concern - unless they act completely differently on mono's.

There is absolutely no valid argument that it is not easier to get aboard on these. A sleight of hand misdirect to not falling overboard to begin with is silly. That is a primary universal rule regardless, but still happens.

And to those who think that it is invalid to have a boat that is too fast for windvane steering, or a catamaran (same thing) - then be happy bobbing along and rolling like a raft. We all hope you survive those massive storms you cannot avoid, but are prepared for.

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Old 15-01-2015, 15:47   #794
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
This whole argument entertains me, mostly because it has been going on for over a hundred years. Just read what Chappelle had to say about sharpies, which have many similarities to today's "production boat", ie cheaper lighter construction, wide beam, flatter bottoms, chines, beam carried aft, faster, less longevity, less seakindly. Same damn argument.
Longer than that. Those clipper ships were pretty much universally damned for their seaworthiness…

If only those old square-rigger designers could be here now debating the crazy unlearned "full-keel, heavy displacement, slack-bilge, low aspect rig" BWC crowd.

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Old 15-01-2015, 15:54   #795
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Many of these boats are so beamy that if you stand on the centerline, where a normal helm would be, you can't see over the windward side once the heel exceeds 10-15 degrees. Hence the need for a windward helm.
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Quite so, and I seem to remember reading of arguments between the "plank on edge" and the "skimming dish" schools of yacht design in the UK in much the same time frame.

And re the difficulty in seeing over the heeled gunnel from a central steering place: I get a bit of that even with our fairly moderate beam (13'10"), helped by weather cloths on the aft rails. I find myself sitting on the cockpit coamings for visibility when sailing hard to windward, barely able to reach the wheel and kinda awkwardly at that. I reckon that on a "Sense" shaped yacht it would be a serious problem without the dual wheels.

Jim
How much beam is there on these 30-33 foot boats? The Azuree 33 has a 12 foot beam; beamy for a 33 footer, but I question the choice of double helm on that small a boat.

Regardless, usability is in the eye of the beholder. The design trends displayed in this thread are appealing to the eye, but not something I personally am interested in. Polux, on the other hand, probably has little interest in some of the more traditional boats. He values speed and modernity over perhaps proven technology. I can't get into the IKEA interiors, but then, the manufacturers obviously know their market, and it appears to work for the masses.
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