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Old 15-01-2015, 05:03   #766
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger View Post
What do you see as a safety factor with open sterns? Seems to me that the immediate draining in the case of being "pooped" is a big plus. Although you can tend to lose unsecured items out the back!
One liability I see, is that an open stern might take the tactic of lying to a drogue in heavy weather off the table... Perhaps not as much of a concern with fully-crewed race boats or yachts, but for boats being sailed shorthanded offshore, I'd always want to keep the option of streaming a series drogue in my bag of tricks...

In a gale or storm at sea, however, a boat like one of these SenseBoats - featuring such an open 'invitation' to a boarding sea, coupled with the total absence of any sort of companionway bridgedeck - might not be especially well-suited to such a tactic... :-)


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Old 15-01-2015, 05:53   #767
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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One liability I see, is that an open stern might take the tactic of lying to a drogue in heavy weather off the table... Perhaps not as much of a concern with fully-crewed race boats or yachts, but for boats being sailed shorthanded offshore, I'd always want to keep the option of streaming a series drogue in my bag of tricks...
..
Yes I agree, but on bad weather lying a drogue is not a good tactic for modern light fast boats, not even solo ones. I remember many years ago the description of a top French professional solo sailor that in absolute incredible circumstances, really huge storm, the ones you can only get when you sail out of season, and having heard all those stories about using a drogue tried to use one. His comments about what happened and his incomprehension why someone would want to use that were positively hilarious, so funny that after all those years i still remember the story (more than 20 years ago?).

Off course at that time solo race boats were already beamy and light. Cruising boats only followed that tendency later.

As a positive advantage that type of hulls perform like multihulls downwind with bad weather, with little roll and the two rudder setup allows for a much superior control, even on autopilot.
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Old 15-01-2015, 06:01   #768
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Yes I agree, but on bad weather lying a drogue is not a good tactic for modern light fast boats, not even solo ones. I remember many years ago the description of a top French professional solo sailor that in absolute incredible circumstances, really huge storm, the ones you can only get when you sail out of season, and having heard all those stories about using a drogue tried to use one. His comments about what happened and his incomprehension why someone would want to use that were positively hilarious, so funny that after all those years i still remember the story (more than 20 years ago?).

Off course at that time solo race boats were already beamy and light. Cruising boats only followed that tendency later.

As a positive advantage that type of hulls perform like multihulls downwind with bad weather, with little roll and the two rudder setup allows for a much superior control, even on autopilot.
The Series Drogue that Jon is talking about is quite unique and has a very long history of living up to its reputation for 99% of the cruising boats out there. It is a very good solution for short handed sailors. As to real light beamy race boats I do not have a clue.
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Old 15-01-2015, 06:15   #769
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes I agree, but on bad weather lying a drogue is not a good tactic for modern light fast boats, not even solo ones.
Are you confusing a drogue with a parachute sea anchor? I can't imagine what the problem is for a drogue - which is designed to slow a boat down, not stop them dead in the water facing the waves.

In other words, when one is surfing down large waves at high speed under bare poles, a drogue trailed aft can slow the boat down to 3-5kts and keep it from running down wave fronts, while still allowing the boat to be actively steered.

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Old 15-01-2015, 06:29   #770
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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A windvane is fine but the modern tendency is to use a very high performance autopilot (NKE) and use a high spec hydrogenerator to have always the power to run everything. That is what is also used on long range racing (Transats and circumnavigations). A top autopilot is much more efficient than a windvane.
Autopilots certainly have their place, and they do work well, when they work.

However, as with any electrical or electronic piece of equipment, once they fail there is little that someone can do in the middle of the ocean. And we all know that they have a history of failure at the most inopportune of times.

Wind vanes, on the other hand, are simple, they work, do not require any electrical input, and in most cases, repairs are never needed but if they are, easy done.

There is a tendency to get to the more complex, rather then the simple. We all know when the poop hits the fan, things go wrong, and can go very wrong. The more complex a system is, the more multiple points of break down there is.

As such, it is my philosophy at simpler, and proven methods, and technology, is better. Of course I have a chart plotter, a backup GPS and VHF radio. I love the abilities that those given me, however I also have charts and pilot guides which is the first place I look at. My charts can get wet, and they still work. Is only if they go overboard that I can't use them. My chart plotter on the other hand although a wonderful instrument, can fail. As can your autopilot.

When is the last time you've heard of a wind vane failing?
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Old 15-01-2015, 07:05   #771
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

A series drogue is not designed to stop the boat , but to slow it, for modern boats with efficient hydrodynamic surfaces , the drogue is less useful or required and if deployed should be used to only bring excessive boat speed under control.

The fact is wide open sterns are actually more seaworthy , because few transoms prevent boarding seas anyway and a wide open stern ejects the water very quickly indeed. The worst is a centre cockpit, damn thing becomes a swimming pool and the water pressure forces water I to the boat

Always felt safer with a good big opening from the cockpit to the stern

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Old 15-01-2015, 07:19   #772
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
The Series Drogue that Jon is talking about is quite unique and has a very long history of living up to its reputation for 99% of the cruising boats out there. It is a very good solution for short handed sailors. As to real light beamy race boats I do not have a clue.
I know what Jon is talking about. Regarding beamy solo racers the situation is the same with light modern fast cruisers: Big drogues that slow a lot the boat are not a good idea. Some lines dragged, as we can see on this mass production cat is all that is needed to slow the boat down even on extreme situations like this. Beamy modern hulls with all the beam pulled back react not in a dissimilar than this cat:

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Old 15-01-2015, 07:34   #773
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Are you confusing a drogue with a parachute sea anchor? I can't imagine what the problem is for a drogue - which is designed to slow a boat down, not stop them dead in the water facing the waves.

In other words, when one is surfing down large waves at high speed under bare poles, a drogue trailed aft can slow the boat down to 3-5kts and keep it from running down wave fronts, while still allowing the boat to be actively steered.

Mark
Well, it depends on the size of the drogue and how much it will slow down the boat. The boat should be maintained not very far from the speed of the waves but slow enough not to surf them. If a drogue is needed or if bare pools is enough or if it requires some lines to be dragged it will depend on the boat and the situation but if you look at that cat you will see that the line seems not to be making a lot of force and I doubt he is pulling a drogue.

You will see also that even if the cat is controlled regarding the speed of the boat and the speed of the wave, being close but not surfing them, you will see also that the waves are not crashing on the back of the cat so a monohull, even with an open transom, would not have a problem regarding big waves crashing through the boat by the stern.

Anyway on the thread where that cat was previously posted the general opinion was that the wind was around 50k. That wind on the big flat vertical surface of the cat cabin will act as if it was blowing on a sail of some size on a monohull, so in what regards that a monohull on bare poles would go less fast than a multihull and it will have more leverage in what concerns controlling max speed and the required speed for not surfing waves.
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Old 15-01-2015, 07:43   #774
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Autopilots certainly have their place, and they do work well, when they work.

However, as with any electrical or electronic piece of equipment, once they fail there is little that someone can do in the middle of the ocean. And we all know that they have a history of failure at the most inopportune of times.

Wind vanes, on the other hand, are simple, they work, do not require any electrical input, and in most cases, repairs are never needed but if they are, easy done.

There is a tendency to get to the more complex, rather then the simple. We all know when the poop hits the fan, things go wrong, and can go very wrong. The more complex a system is, the more multiple points of break down there is.

As such, it is my philosophy at simpler, and proven methods, and technology, is better. Of course I have a chart plotter, a backup GPS and VHF radio. I love the abilities that those given me, however I also have charts and pilot guides which is the first place I look at. My charts can get wet, and they still work. Is only if they go overboard that I can't use them. My chart plotter on the other hand although a wonderful instrument, can fail. As can your autopilot.

When is the last time you've heard of a wind vane failing?
Yes I agree more complicated technology is more prone to failure then a simpler one and all is a compromise between reliability and advantages of a bigger efficiency. We would all be still using sextants and non furling sails if we all opted for max reliability instead of the better compromise between reliability and efficiency.

I do however agree that a greater number of spares and redundant systems has to be carried if you chose efficiency over simplicity and that's also the case regarding autopilot versus windvane.
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Old 15-01-2015, 09:17   #775
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It is much easier to trouble shoot simplistic machines than complex. Things break and it's just a matter of time.
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Old 15-01-2015, 09:57   #776
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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It is much easier to trouble shoot simplistic machines than complex. Things break and it's just a matter of time.
That's why modern commercial passenger airplanes are very simple: Max reliability is requeired
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Old 15-01-2015, 09:57   #777
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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In-mast furling in the arctic. Now there's an intrepid concept.
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Old 15-01-2015, 10:05   #778
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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In-mast furling in the arctic. Now there's an intrepid concept.
Having experienced an in mast furling jam when the wind picked up while I was at the helm, I would not want to even guess what it would be like to use an in mast furler inside Arctic waters. I live area for most my life word is easy to hit freezing temperatures in every month except July.

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Old 15-01-2015, 10:08   #779
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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FWIW, the use of wind vane steering on really fast boats begins to loose its luster, despite the many good features of this sort of steering. Specifically, for boats that surf readily, and all of Pollux's favourites surely do so, the apparent wind changes direction rapidly as the boat takes off down a wave. The vane attempts to maintain a constant apparent wind angle, and so steers further down as the AW moves forward. This can lead to broaching, crash gybing and general poor steering... none good things for the cruiser.

I hate to say it, for I loved the vane on our previous boat, but the boats have outperformed this steering mode IMO.

Jim
Which gives rise to the whole reason for this thread. Perhaps the latest and greatest developments are not necessary the best when one is considering long passages and how they will be executed. The lack of the ability to utilize a wind vane, in my opinion, is one of those compromises where the speed is not as advantageous as some think.

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Old 15-01-2015, 10:10   #780
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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That's why modern commercial passenger airplanes are very simple: Max reliability is requeired
And, of course, they have multiple backups for their systems. They also test all structural components multiple times. We know that sailboat manufactures do not do that, don't we.

I'm not sure how much expense when wants to invest in and having multiple chartplotters, multiple radar systems, multiple auto pilot, or multiple anything else of that nature to achieve the level of backup that modern airplanes have.

One cannot compare the two.

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