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Old 12-01-2015, 16:45   #721
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I don't know anyone who doubts that you can cross oceans on a mass production boat, especially if the skipper is any good and reasonable preparation has been made. And I haven't read anything on here which takes such a position. In my opinion, that is a non-existent argument with a straw man, or a quarrel in an empty place. In my opinion, the whole concept of a "blue water boat" is silly -- cannot be determined in the abstract, as Dave perceptively wrote.

That doesn't mean that all boats are equal -- if I were crossing an ocean I would vastly prefer something like my own boat, to a Bene or a Bavaria. For a lot of different reasons, including the chain plates and collision bulkheads and much greater strength of the hull and appendages. But I wouldn't hesitate to do a transat on a Bene if that was what I had, and I would prefer it to an older, heavier, slower boat. I am one of those people who would sacrifice a certain amount of strength for speed, if I were forced to choose, which does not mean that other people have no right to different values and choices.

I think it's an entirely artificial argument between people who (correctly) say that you can cross oceans on mass produced boats safely and pleasurably, and other people who (correctly) say that some mass produced boats might not be the best possible tool for the job, if you have a choice.
+1, well said!

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(Now I'm going to stop reading these production vs whatever threads!)
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Old 12-01-2015, 18:34   #722
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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+1, well said!

Frank

(Now I'm going to stop reading these production vs whatever threads!)
All I can say is AMEN!! Thank you goboatingnow & Dockhead -- voices of reason.
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Old 12-01-2015, 18:44   #723
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I don't know anyone who doubts that you can cross oceans on a mass production boat, especially if the skipper is any good and reasonable preparation has been made. And I haven't read anything on here which takes such a position. In my opinion, that is a non-existent argument with a straw man, or a quarrel in an empty place. In my opinion, the whole concept of a "blue water boat" is silly -- cannot be determined in the abstract, as Dave perceptively wrote.

That doesn't mean that all boats are equal -- if I were crossing an ocean I would vastly prefer something like my own boat, to a Bene or a Bavaria. For a lot of different reasons, including the chain plates and collision bulkheads and much greater strength of the hull and appendages. But I wouldn't hesitate to do a transat on a Bene if that was what I had, and I would prefer it to an older, heavier, slower boat. I am one of those people who would sacrifice a certain amount of strength for speed, if I were forced to choose, which does not mean that other people have no right to different values and choices.

I think it's an entirely artificial argument between people who (correctly) say that you can cross oceans on mass produced boats safely and pleasurably, and other people who (correctly) say that some mass produced boats might not be the best possible tool for the job, if you have a choice.
yes, I agree with all. If you had been around this thread could have been a lot shorter

I would add that all mass produced boats are not the same and there are some more suited than others and I am only referring to seaworthiness because in what regards type they can be quite different and suit different sailing and cruising styles.
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Old 12-01-2015, 18:57   #724
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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No doubt that a cat, at least the ones with big houses are better than a mono in what regards being at anchor or in a port (if we don't take in consideration prices of berths).

Regarding sailing there are all kinds of different preferences it is a personal choice. Do you have been on a cat and on a mono in heavy weather upwind? What are your comparative impressions? I ask because most will say that like more one or another motion depending the type of boat they have and you seem not have any yet.
My experience sailing is all with cats and not extensive and I am still researching although I have spent half a lifetime (30years) boating on both monohull and catamaran power vessels all over the GBR and Coral Sea primarily diving. I recognise and have experienced the motion in some cats can at times be stiff. On the flybridge of a 50 ft Crowther powercat I spent a couple of months on it was certainly that but again the Lagoon 400 I spent a week on was not stiff in rough conditions. Whilst sailing is relatively new to me however I have extensively researched sailing catamarans.

The point I make about the HR there is no way I could convience my partner to go with a monohull like the HR no matter how good it was bashing upwind. The vessel was also certainly not designed for living aboard in the tropics. I do know some cats are better than others upwind and in our waters if you have a decent cat the iron sail can always be used.
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Old 12-01-2015, 19:20   #725
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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....
The point I make about the HR there is no way I could convience my partner to go with a monohull like the HR no matter how good it was bashing upwind. The vessel was also certainly not designed for living aboard in the tropics. I do know some cats are better than others upwind and in our waters if you have a decent cat the iron sail can always be used.
Yes I certainly agree with that. First I have the OK from my wife in what regards minimum requirements and interior comforts and then I can choose the boat I like more It seems your partner is more demanding than mine but if she would chose the boat I would be sailing a Southerly 42 RS (decksaloon) or a RM 1200, now the 1270. Maybe your partner likes those too.



I don't like much the finish on the interior of that boat on the test. They have now a smaller boat, a 35ft with an amazing interior. It's hard to believe it is a 35ft boat.
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Not to try to influence you but try both types of boats and inside each type several sub-types. Cats are great but the ones I like I cannot afford them.
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Old 12-01-2015, 20:00   #726
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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yes, I agree with all. If you had been around this thread could have been a lot shorter




Why? I said exactly the same thing about 600 posts ago.
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Old 13-01-2015, 06:14   #727
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Why? I said exactly the same thing about 600 posts ago.
You mean the post below were you say that "its the crew not the boat" and then you post a picture of a ridiculously small boat as if doing it on a mass production boat was as risky or uncomfortable of doing it in such a boat and finish saying, referring the guy that sailed on that tiny boat: "Any boat at all can do it, it's just a question of for how long, with how much maintenance, and with what sort of comfort factor. Not everybody is a Tom McNally." "

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.. Please show me where anyone on this forum has ever said production boats are not suited for "blue water" or passage making. I've never seen it. As has been said in this thread and elsewhere ad nauseum, it's the crew not the boat. Hugo Vihlen went transat in a 6' boat long ago. The record is now 3' 11". People have crossed in kayaks and rowboats, and my friend Jordan makes regular long ocean passages in small rowboats. Any boat at all can do it, it's just a question of for how long, with how much maintenance, and with what sort of comfort factor. Not everybody is a Tom McNally.

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You mean this is the post that agrees with the OP original statement:

""Production Boats" are NOT just "coastal cruisers" as some would have us believe. ..... So, I'd like this thread to be dedicated to examples of the many production boats out there very happily and safely cruising blue water".

I could post more posts that opposed the view that mass production boats are widely used by many families while crossing oceans or circumnavigating (as I have bean posting about) but I will just post another one:

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I hear ya! The real long term sailors that travel all over the world and sometimes around the great Capes rarely if ever use the modern cheaper production boats … For most folks these days a trip around the Caribbean and maybe over to the Med and back is about as much sailing as they want to do and the large cheaper production boats will handle this with few problems..…
So as you can there was diverging opinions about this and I had showed by the many posts about the many mass production boats that have circumnavigated and circumnavigate that Robert was wrong saying that mass production boats are a common choice used by long range cruisers in a satisfactory way, or as you say, that they will only offer a reduced comfort or a reduced seaworthiness (comparing them with those tiny boats you have posted).

Nobody, neither the OP was saying that a more expensive modern production boat is not more adapted to voyaging comparing with a mass production boat. Boats like a modern Amel, a XC yacht or an Halberg Rassy are a better option if one can afford them. He was saying:

""Production Boats" are NOT just "coastal cruisers" as some would have us believe. ..... So, I'd like this thread to be dedicated to examples of the many production boats out there very happily and safely cruising blue water".

And if some had not disagreed this thread would have been very short.
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Old 13-01-2015, 07:38   #728
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Continuing with one the purposes of this thread, that seems an interesting and informative one to me:

"My point in starting this thread is simply to provide some factual accuracy to what can be very silly and misleading arguments. So, I'd like this thread to be dedicated to examples of the many production boats out there very happily and safely cruising blue water."


Mass produced boats making the Cornell's Blue Planet Odyssey circumnavigation (2014-2017). Out of 21:

Beneteau Oceanis 393, Lagoon 400, Lagoon 410, Lagoon 450, Wauquiez 40, J40, Lagoon 45.

Brand more represented: Lagoon with 3 boats followed by Amel (2) and Garcia (2).
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Old 13-01-2015, 08:01   #729
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Polux -- Aren't Robert, Minaret & others simply trying to make the point that, in their opinion, there are better alternatives than a production boat to doing hard-core long-distance sailing? Like Dockhead, I also haven't heard or read anyone claim that production boats cannot do this, or have never done this, or even that they rarely do this. Isn't it more just people with some informed opinions saying that production boats may not be the best choice?

While I appreciate all of your postings of production boats that have in fact done it, why would this surprise anyone who knows that they are the boats sold in the largest quantities largely on account of their price? And why would these comments bother anyone who owns a production boat in any event?

Or is this more about your desire to continue debating whether there is in fact some sort of debate? Like some others, I don't believe there ever was any sort of substantive "debate," but rather an OP who knew the topic would be an effective way to stir up controversy & devisiveness for its own sake. Either way, I've learned a few things from it all and so appreciate the input from you and others. But after 50 pages it just seems to me like there's not much else to talk about, let alone "debate."
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Old 13-01-2015, 08:35   #730
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Polux -- Aren't Robert, Minaret & others simply trying to make the point that, in their opinion, there are better alternatives than a production boat to doing hard-core long-distance sailing? Like Dockhead, I also haven't heard or read anyone claim that production boats cannot do this, or have never done this, or even that they rarely do this. Isn't it more just people with some informed opinions saying that production boats may not be the best choice?
..
No, in fact Robert said that there was not long rage cruising choosing them for doing it. Nobody said they were the best choice but some questioned that they were suitable for it or used in any meaningful number by long range cruisers. I believe that it is settled now with Dockhead post with whom all seem to agree and with all the information I posted regarding mass production boats that circumnavigated. One of the points of this thread is settled:
Mass production boats, depending on the size and type, are suitable for offshore sailing, long range cruising and are used for that by many long range cruisers that chose them, regarding budget, to old heavier "quality boats". Not saying that its better or worst, just a fact that was denied by some. Obviously those that chose those boats prefer them to the older ones.

But regarding this thread another interesting subject was addressed from the beginning: to post boats and blogs of boats whose owners do long range cruising on modern mass production boats. The number of visits to this thread indicates that I am not the only one interested in that. That provides information (regarding mass production boats) about the sizes of boats more used, brands or models as well what kind of preparation the boats were subjected to adapt them to long range cruising (Blogs), all subjects that I believe are of interest to many.

Regarding boat brands we can see that Lagoon are very popular and between the 38 and the 450 many are used. We can see also that specific models like the Jeanneau SO49, the Oceanis 393, the Bavaria 42/44 are used in more number than others. We can also see that rarely boats with less then 39fts are used and that the average is somewhere between the 42 and 50ft.

The information regarding what are the boats that long range cruisers using modern mass production cruisers are using is a relevant one, as relevant as to know what are using the ones that use modern small production expensive boats. Maybe you want to open a thread about that

What this is all about is what is the better boat to cruise extensively given a reduced budget. The choices here are an old boat, a mass production recent one or a recent production quality smaller boat. I would say that not always the recent bigger mass production boat is the worst choice, in fact I believe that it is for many the best choice, depending obviously of the different particular cases.
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Old 13-01-2015, 08:38   #731
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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You mean the post below were you say that "its the crew not the boat" and then you post a picture of a ridiculously small boat as if doing it on a mass production boat was as risky or uncomfortable of doing it in such a boat and finish saying, referring the guy that sailed on that tiny boat: "Any boat at all can do it, it's just a question of for how long, with how much maintenance, and with what sort of comfort factor. Not everybody is a Tom McNally." "



You mean this is the post that agrees with the OP original statement:

""Production Boats" are NOT just "coastal cruisers" as some would have us believe. ..... So, I'd like this thread to be dedicated to examples of the many production boats out there very happily and safely cruising blue water".

I could post more posts that opposed the view that mass production boats are widely used by many families while crossing oceans or circumnavigating (as I have bean posting about) but I will just post another one:



So as you can there was diverging opinions about this and I had showed by the many posts about the many mass production boats that have circumnavigated and circumnavigate that Robert was wrong saying that mass production boats are a common choice used by long range cruisers in a satisfactory way, or as you say, that they will only offer a reduced comfort or a reduced seaworthiness (comparing them with those tiny boats you have posted).

Nobody, neither the OP was saying that a more expensive modern production boat is not more adapted to voyaging comparing with a mass production boat. Boats like a modern Amel, a XC yacht or an Halberg Rassy are a better option if one can afford them. He was saying:

""Production Boats" are NOT just "coastal cruisers" as some would have us believe. ..... So, I'd like this thread to be dedicated to examples of the many production boats out there very happily and safely cruising blue water".

And if some had not disagreed this thread would have been very short.
My ideas of what boat choice long term voyagers favor came from my thread. On average the real long time voyagers tend to favor boats that are usually heavier built, better set up with lots of storage and equipped for self sufficiency, often aluminum boats tend to attract many of these folks. . Yes for sure many people have chosen the less expensive production boats to cross oceans or circumnavigate but very few make these boats their choice for really long term voyaging. Now I didn't say none, I said very few. Now one also has to keep in mind that there are not many voyagers out there either so its a small group. There is no controversy here my friend, we all know that any boat can sail around the world as long as the skipper does his part. It would be much more interesting to see some of the smaller production boats that have done some serious sailing, what do you think?
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Old 13-01-2015, 10:45   #732
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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.. Yes for sure many people have chosen the less expensive production boats to cross oceans or circumnavigate but very few make these boats their choice for really long term voyaging.
Now, that's a puzzling comment: For me and surely almost for all, a several year's long circumnavigation is the paradigm of really long term voyaging.

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Now I didn't say none, I said very few.
What I said Was not what I meant to say. I correct now (it escaped me a "not"):
" Robert was wrong saying that mass production boats are not a common choice used by long range cruisers in a satisfactory way"

And this statement is certainly correct face to the reality of the ones that circumnavigate with those boats and to your previous statement: "The real long term sailors that travel all over the world and sometimes around the great Capes rarely if ever use the modern cheaper production boats"

I am not arguing if it is better or worst. It is a fact: many of the ones that circumnavigate do that on mass production boats and that is a common and popular choice.

I can try to understand why and it don't seem difficult to me since I would chose also that option. If I was doing that I would be on a low budget and for those there are three choices: To buy and old outdated quality boat, to buy a much smaller recent quality boat, to buy a bigger recent mass production boat.

I will not discuss here the vantages or disadvantages of each option that were already discussed elsewhere but it is obviously that many chose to buy a new or recent bigger mass production boat.

As in almost anything regarding boats that is a choice that some prefer, others not and in what regards that we have obviously different opinions (me and all that chose those boats to circumnavigate) that does not mine right and your's wrong but certainly makes your statement regarding this to be a very rare option wrong. In fact it is a popular one.
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Old 13-01-2015, 10:52   #733
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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For all those decrying the design and building methods of modern production boats and how sub-standard they are compared to "real blue water boats", you really need to take a look at the new Hinckley 50 in this thread:

2015 Hinkley Bermuda 50

Is this Hinckley "fit for blue water"?
Smack....smack....smack...
Let go of your inferiority complex man, you have a perfectly capable Blue Water Boat.

But that's not the point it is....until everyone agrees with you, you can't sleep at night.

Forget about that, now what blue water trip have you taken your Blue Water Boat on so far? Because despite what many apparently think, posting about going blue water online doesn't count.
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Old 13-01-2015, 11:02   #734
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Smack....smack....smack...
Let go of your inferiority complex man, you have a perfectly capable Blue Water Boat.

But that's not the point it is....until everyone agrees with you, you can't sleep at night.
...
I don't see in what that adds to the discussion. It seems to me that the points Smack was making (initial post) were validated in a consensual way.

Maybe I am the only one but saying to someone that he has a inferiority complex looks of bad taste to me . Saying that to someone that can't reply is ...well, I don't know what it is but it is not certainly nice. (I hope you don't know Smack is no long around).
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Old 13-01-2015, 11:05   #735
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I don't see in what that adds to the discussion. It seems to me that the points Smack was making (initial post) were validated in a consensual way.

Maybe I am the only one but saying to someone that he has a inferiority complex looks of bad taste to me . Saying that to someone that can't reply is ...well, I don't know what it is but it is not certainly nice. (I hope you don't know Smack is no long around).
You have to know a little history to get the comment....that's the hard part with a gazillion page post....no problems.
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