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Old 10-01-2015, 12:48   #691
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

That makes sense. So, in that regard, I suppose we should see more Catalinas in the West Coast marinas.
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Old 10-01-2015, 13:04   #692
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Part of the reason for this is the European boat manufacturers produce 3-4 or more times the sailboats per year than does the american industry. The american boating public tends to be centered around power boats, where the european market is centered around sailboats.

This much greater sailboat production will end up dominating the used boat sales.
I believe that in what regards boat market in Europe it's to close to 50%. A bit less sailboats even if on anchorages you see more sailboats than motorboats.
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Old 10-01-2015, 13:18   #693
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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That makes sense. So, in that regard, I suppose we should see more Catalinas in the West Coast marinas.
Catalinas were easily the most popular boats in the Nanaimo marina I was in. Benes were next.

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Old 10-01-2015, 13:25   #694
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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..
...

The more I've looked into this, the more clear it becomes that the US-based yacht builders are being killed in terms of market share (except maybe for performance boats like J-Boat which has a fairly good international following). But if YW is any indication at all of pure volume moving from new to used...European builders are nailing it.

My hunch is that Catalina has not sold very many bigger boats over the past 10-12 years. It appears Hunter has done much better - but even they have had pretty significant financial problems to the point that Marlow took them over.

I would like to think that YW simply reflects a clear separation of markets (US vs. Europe/etc.) both in terms of price and volume. But all you have to do is walk a marina to see that European brands far outweight US-brands when it comes to newer boats. Way more Benes, Jenes, etc. And way more Hunters than Catalinas.

I honestly don't understand why Catalina isn't more prevalent. It really is a good boat. I can only assume that it's a cost issue (more expensive than other used production boats). Again, that's good for the owners in that they have a well-built boat that holds its value...but I'm not so sure that's good for Catalina.

Thoughts?
I cannot offer only an outsider perspective but I would say that the decline of American sailboats sales on US, regarding big production brands and the increase in European brands has to do mostly with a bad reading of what the market wants. American sailors used to be a lot more conservative in its choices and they are changing fast.

I believe that even Jeanneau missed that: jeanneaus are the ones that are made taking in consideration the American Market: Narrower boats, more conservative regarding the last models from Beneteau....I may be wrong but for what I sense on this forum it seems that the Beneteau 35 and 38 are selling a lot more than the Jeanneau 349 and 379.

It seems to me that the guys on Catalina, more even than on Hunter, did not understood that the market has changed and even if that are still a large majority of conservative tastes in what regards the industry (and boat forums) regarding the ones that have the money to buy boats they are become rapidly less and less conservatives.

The Rhythm of innovation in Europe is so huge that to be competitive the European boat companies resource to the best NA and to the best interior designers to have an edge, to be able to produce a slightly more modern and efficient and good looking boat than their rival companies.

While European companies are fighting hard for innovation, faster and better boats, American companies keep making small changes on their boats that are designed in the house in what regards the interior and exterior, boats meant to a more conservative clientele that is disappearing.
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Old 10-01-2015, 14:02   #695
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I cannot offer only an outsider perspective but I would say that the decline of American sailboats sales on US, regarding big production brands and the increase in European brands has to do mostly with a bad reading of what the market wants. American sailors used to be a lot more conservative in its choices and they are changing fast.

I believe that even Jeanneau missed that: jeanneaus are the ones that are made taking in consideration the American Market: Narrower boats, more conservative regarding the last models from Beneteau....I may be wrong but for what I sense on this forum it seems that the Beneteau 35 and 38 are selling a lot more than the Jeanneau 349 and 379.

It seems to me that the guys on Catalina, more even than on Hunter, did not understood that the market has changed and even if that are still a large majority of conservative tastes in what regards the industry (and boat forums) regarding the ones that have the money to buy boats they are become rapidly less and less conservatives.

The Rhythm of innovation in Europe is so huge that to be competitive the European boat companies resource to the best NA and to the best interior designers to have an edge, to be able to produce a slightly more modern and efficient and good looking boat than their rival companies.

While European companies are fighting hard for innovation, faster and better boats, American companies keep making small changes on their boats that are designed in the house in what regards the interior and exterior, boats meant to a more conservative clientele that is disappearing.
I think with the sinking Euro you will see many more Americans buying European boats both new and used and local American companies will have an even harder time to compete. It will be less about design and more about the pocket book.
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Old 10-01-2015, 15:30   #696
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I think with the sinking Euro you will see many more Americans buying European boats both new and used and local American companies will have an even harder time to compete. It will be less about design and more about the pocket book.
Yes, things were not nice for American mass production production boat shipyards and they will going to be worse. I hope they can survive even if I think that for that they have to change and start doing as the European ones commissioning boats to the best NAs and best interior designers.
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Old 10-01-2015, 19:53   #697
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

More mass production boats that circumnavigated, this time doing the 2008 ARC world Rally: 19 boats and among them these:

Beneteau Oceanis 393, Beneteau First 42S7, Beneteau First 44.7, Bavaria 44, Bavaria 46, Jeanneau SO 49, Jeanneau SO 49DS.

Bigger number the boats by brand: a match between Beneteau and Oyster.

This time no cats but curiously a fast 50ft French trimaran, this one:

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Old 11-01-2015, 01:10   #698
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I cannot offer only an outsider perspective but I would say that the decline of American sailboats sales on US, regarding big production brands and the increase in European brands has to do mostly with a bad reading of what the market wants. American sailors used to be a lot more conservative in its choices and they are changing fast.

I believe that even Jeanneau missed that: jeanneaus are the ones that are made taking in consideration the American Market: Narrower boats, more conservative regarding the last models from Beneteau....I may be wrong but for what I sense on this forum it seems that the Beneteau 35 and 38 are selling a lot more than the Jeanneau 349 and 379.

It seems to me that the guys on Catalina, more even than on Hunter, did not understood that the market has changed and even if that are still a large majority of conservative tastes in what regards the industry (and boat forums) regarding the ones that have the money to buy boats they are become rapidly less and less conservatives.

The Rhythm of innovation in Europe is so huge that to be competitive the European boat companies resource to the best NA and to the best interior designers to have an edge, to be able to produce a slightly more modern and efficient and good looking boat than their rival companies.

While European companies are fighting hard for innovation, faster and better boats, American companies keep making small changes on their boats that are designed in the house in what regards the interior and exterior, boats meant to a more conservative clientele that is disappearing.
I think You have a big point here.Itīs not only the manufactorers. Itīs also the poeple who buy those boats. Analize every word....they colaborating with american and english designers, a boat for a nice day on the water, a dingy for loading and unloading, 10 people on board. They are talking about a party cruiser platform and bedrooms and how to load and unload all that gear that the customers want. I beleave they could built good boats in the terms here mentioned but the market where they can sell is what this guy is talking about. Just listen to the concept. There is tough competition


You have to have Charter companies to sell boats


Just in time production.....look aroud ...they could built any kind of boat


Here is a factory tour to Hunter...gues the difference is obvious
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Old 11-01-2015, 06:39   #699
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

A comparaison of the mass production boats that circumnavigated on the different World ARC, according to year seems interesting to me and probably it will be interesting to others, so let's have a look:

In 2008/2009: Beneteau Oceanis 393, Beneteau First 42S7, Beneteau First 44.7, Bavaria 44, Bavaria 46, Jeanneau SO 49, Jeanneau SO 49DS and a cat, a Manta 40.

In 2010/2011: 19 boats and this time a lot more mass production cats: Alliaura Previlege 435; Alliaura Privilege 435, Alliaura Privilege 445, Lagoon 440.
Monohulls: Bavaria 47, Benetau Cyclades 50.5, Hanse 531.

Bigger number of boats by brand: Alliaura (catamaran) with three and Amel, with the same number.
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Old 11-01-2015, 15:12   #700
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

To get down to a few facts that canīt be denied
First here some quotes on Manufactruring Technologies that I gathered together cruising around on CF

> At the first glance it's big but not so organized factory. At that time they were having some issues on maintaining standard on finishing. I saw same line of boats with different quality of workmanship. Later same year, a friend got his boat delivered with two different wood finish in the interiors.
- They have an accelerated Hull/deck manufacturing process. At that time, they were laying fiberglass layers wet on wet and Drying the hull/deck in a gigantic oven. Some seasoned sailor friends thinks it's not the best way to make fiberglass hull/deck. May cause osmosis problems in the future. (I don't actually know how other mass boat producers are manufacturing the hull. This is just and observation and comment)
- The Hull/keel joint did not seem strong enough. There were no structural reinforcement in joint area. (I have to admit, we were still under the influence of Match 42 accident)
- Like other mass boat producers, they use market proven brand name components for electronics, plumbing, engine, running rigging, sails etc)
> Autoclaving is about the BEST method for curing plastic resin - as long as it is tailored to the process - it's what they do with carbon spars for example. It's only the cost of the huge oven that has kept it from becoming the standard process everywhere.
Just think - you can take the time you need to lay out the fabric - no rush "before it kicks", just get everything just so, then bake it.
Putting the hull/deck in an oven is many times a pretty common thing to do these days. I personally would not worry about that part of a boat I was going to buy. Many also heat and put some of the parts in a vacuum bag to help the resin get thru the cloth/glass part too. This helps keeps the hull/deck light, along with being strong.
But as we all know, the human factor can be an issue with all manufacturing processes, so while something maybe a great way to build, if the humans do not do it correctly.....might as well be the worst way! then again, the worst way done with great care, may be better than the Best way with no care!

Coming from aircraft industrie and particular CF tooling and design

First off all......let me ashure You that Vacuum Resin Infusion and controlled curing in an autoclave is the absolutly best of the advanced materials.Around the year 2000 this tech was introduced big time in european comercial aircrafts. Comercial aircrafts set the standard for technologie in regards to safety.
There are 3 mayor advantages of this tech and in this order the first one is:
It allows to make bigger and more complex parts that otherwise would be imposible. To bring this in understandable perspectives. Before the same part had to be manufactured constructing several parts and than riveted,clued sealed joined together to make the same part. Every joint is a weak spot. Think off stress with high pay loads, vibrations and in temperatures from -55šC to 150šC. Those aircrafts have to operated in desert and arctic temps,wet and dry enviroment. So the less parts the more structural integrety. It eaven gets more complex when joining different materials together. They all behave different and in some ocasions it would eaven be imposible to design and manufactor a certain part in any other way. This is a huge progress.
Second...imagen under those payloads there must be a super high precision rivet about every 1 inch to garanty the the structural values. But eaven so the quality of the joints has to be inspected from time to time. Hope You get the idear.
The second and super important progress was the weight savings. Imagen how much weight difference there is if You can save all the rivets,sealers, glues and special tapes. We talking about aconsiderable percentage of the total weight of the aircraft.
Third think about just 1 rivet. The parts to be joined have to be mounted in a precision assembly rigg. The position has to be marked, the hole be PRE drilled, than drilled to itīs size to prevent stress on material, reamed for the rivet to have a 360š precision fit and countersunk for aerodynamic performance. Eaven with drill jigs there is a lot of room for human error and if dedected the whole process has to be repeated with over sized rivets and repaired. Now start to multiply.....
Itīs not only the cost....itīs also a lot safer because of the
>>>>>control of quality of lesser parts

In contrast to that
vacuum resin infusion garanties all fibers are properly wetted, the access resin is removed
The resin is cured at the exact temperature and time factors at every stage of the resin and all positions of the part controled by sometimes more than 100 temperature sensores in the autoclave depending on size of the part.
The quality of those 2 processes is ashured by inspecting the finished part with an X-Ray scanner and stress tests.
There is no more posibility of human error in that process. Nothing and no issues escapes this process.
You would be surprized how much superior the limits get using this production proccess compared to any other method and specially compared to the ones used in high end custom boats with small production numbers.
There is tecnically no way they will ever garanty those quality standards.

The draw back is the huge investment for incorporating such technology in the boats industrie. Also the tooling is very expensive and every little change is combined with high costs. The design of the molds better be double checked for precision etc and they have all to ready for production at the same time as also the rest of all the other parts to have a smooth production cycle.
As to be expected....itīs a long process from designing a new model/boat, ramping up production and getting to pull out them boats like cockies but once everything runs smooth prices go down drastically and there is no better way to construct boats as far as quality to price ratio.

More so it needs to sell a lot of boats to pay for such a manufacturing facility.
Usually for building boats this way it needs a proto type but even most of this design stage today can be eleminated with using the known parameters into computer design animation. So they know pretty much everything about the boat before they even start the production.
Another very negative aspect is, this way of building boats leaves very little room for changes unless those desirable changes are incorporated right from the beginning.
BUT...after all itīs a huge progress and a Win Win for boats
Well ..where does that leave us ?
A high quality boat but may be not designed to what we define as blue water aplication.I would estimate that this new situation will shut the door for many boats builders in the future, because the relation between what You pay and what You get for the money will get outrageous. Once the big markets are saturated they will attack smaller niche customers and hopefully they will start thinking soon about the here discussed blue water desires.

I personally would well come more designers and builders with good boats to make a deal with those facilities to at least manufactor part of their boat with those tecnics to ashure better quality standards and bring down the price.

The option of converting such a production boat to the here mentioned features ?
Yes everything is possible but besides the money I am very skeptical when it comes to trial and error experiments and I guess there are limits if You donīt want to touch the structural integrity of such production boats.
In this aspect what I definitly like about the new design production boats is the space available for the size of the boat. They certainly look good.
What I absolutly donīt like is the double steering in the back. Huge areas totally unprotected from the elements.All the gear to move the sails comes from quality suppliers but It seems to me for withstanding tough conditions for extended periods the next size up is more adequade. When it comes to blue water navigation equipment the outfits are pour and that costs a lot of money to upgrade. And for permanent live a bord I think it needs a whole lot more. Not only will that raise the weight considerably and it remains to be seen what effects that would have on the performance, but also to find a proper space for the components ???

I certainly would enjoy the project
But I love sailing and spent the money else where a lot more
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Old 11-01-2015, 16:16   #701
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Mass production boats that circumnavigated on the different World ARC,

In 2008/2009: 19 boats and between them: Beneteau Oceanis 393, Beneteau First 42S7, Beneteau First 44.7, Bavaria 44, Bavaria 46, Jeanneau SO 49, Jeanneau SO 49DS and a cat, a Manta 40.

In 2010/2011: 19 boats and this time a lot more mass production cats: Alliaura Previlege 435; Alliaura Privilege 435, Alliaura Privilege 445, Lagoon 440. Monohulls: Bavaria 47, Benetau Cyclades 50.5, Hanse 531.

In 2012/2013: 22 boats and among them: Jeanneau SO 49, Jeanneau SO 45, Beneteau 50, Beneteau Oceanis 461, Bavaria 44, Jeanneau SO 52.2, Jeanneau SO 54DS, a Catana 522, a Catana 581 and a Lagoon 38.

Brands with more boats: Jeannneau and Halberg Rassy, both with four each.
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Old 11-01-2015, 23:15   #702
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Catalinas were easily the most popular boats in the Nanaimo marina I was in. Benes were next.

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Cooper Yachts of Vancouver made Catalina Yachts under licence. Heard it said that they were not as well built as the California ones?
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Old 12-01-2015, 00:11   #703
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Mass production boats that circumnavigated on the different World ARC,

In 2008/2009: 19 boats and between them: Beneteau Oceanis 393, Beneteau First 42S7, Beneteau First 44.7, Bavaria 44, Bavaria 46, Jeanneau SO 49, Jeanneau SO 49DS and a cat, a Manta 40.

In 2010/2011: 19 boats and this time a lot more mass production cats: Alliaura Previlege 435; Alliaura Privilege 435, Alliaura Privilege 445, Lagoon 440. Monohulls: Bavaria 47, Benetau Cyclades 50.5, Hanse 531.

In 2012/2013: 22 boats and among them: Jeanneau SO 49, Jeanneau SO 45, Beneteau 50, Beneteau Oceanis 461, Bavaria 44, Jeanneau SO 52.2, Jeanneau SO 54DS, a Catana 522, a Catana 581 and a Lagoon 38.

Brands with more boats: Jeannneau and Halberg Rassy, both with four each.
Spent some time on a HR46 on the WRC when they were in Mackay their entry port to Australia.

Reinforced to me why I will go with a cat. Had to bend down and crawl into the cockpit and then down into the dark cave with all the timber. Definitely a well built vessel but not for me.

Cheers
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:45   #704
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Spent some time on a HR46 on the WRC when they were in Mackay their entry port to Australia.

Reinforced to me why I will go with a cat. Had to bend down and crawl into the cockpit and then down into the dark cave with all the timber. Definitely a well built vessel but not for me.

Cheers
No doubt that a cat, at least the ones with big houses are better than a mono in what regards being at anchor or in a port (if we don't take in consideration prices of berths).

Regarding sailing there are all kinds of different preferences it is a personal choice. Do you have been on a cat and on a mono in heavy weather upwind? What are your comparative impressions? I ask because most will say that like more one or another motion depending the type of boat they have and you seem not have any yet.
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Old 12-01-2015, 12:05   #705
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

And finalizing with the mass production boats that circumnavigated on the World ARC the ones that are on the last leg of their circumnavigation, sailing from Cape town to Brazil:

In 2014/2015: 18 boats and between them: Jeanneau SO 39i, Beneteau 40, Hanse 47, Jeanneau SO 49, Lagoon 380, Lagoon 620.

Brand with more boats: This time several brands with 2 boats and between them two Brands of monohull performance cruisers - 2 Grand Soleil, 2 Xyachts 2 jeanneau, 2 Lagoon.

In 2008/2009: 19 boats and between them: Beneteau Oceanis 393, Beneteau First 42S7, Beneteau First 44.7, Bavaria 44, Bavaria 46, Jeanneau SO 49, Jeanneau SO 49DS and a cat, a Manta 40.

In 2010/2011: 19 boats and this time a lot more mass production cats: Alliaura Previlege 435; Alliaura Privilege 435, Alliaura Privilege 445, Lagoon 440. Monohulls: Bavaria 47, Benetau Cyclades 50.5, Hanse 531.

In 2012/2013: 22 boats and among them: Jeanneau SO 49, Jeanneau SO 45, Beneteau 50, Beneteau Oceanis 461, Bavaria 44, Jeanneau SO 52.2, Jeanneau SO 54DS, a Catana 522, a Catana 581 and a Lagoon 380.
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