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Old 09-01-2015, 15:53   #661
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Hmmm, should I be outraged? Has my little tub just been BASHED?

:-)

Considering the fact that the first ever cirmumnavigation in a fiberglass boat was performed by a 30' Allied Seawind built in 1962, some may find that dismissal of a particular category of boat somewhat ironic...

Moreover, as one who sails another 30' production boat from Allied built in 1970, guess I'd better re-think this whole "Bluewater Cruising" thing...

:-))





Yup, rarely a day passes, where I don't learn something new on an internet sailing forum... Guess I better stick to motoring down the ICW from now on...

:-))
Do you really equate your Allied 30 to a Catalina 27 or Cal 25? I don't.
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Old 09-01-2015, 16:07   #662
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Do you really equate your Allied 30 to a Catalina 27 or Cal 25? I don't.
How about a Moore 24? You don't need a modern 40-50 foot boat to sail around the world but if you are sailing a little boat you need some skill and balls. Skill is still in short supply in many cases so add some boat length to make up for it and you can do it in a modern cruiser/racer then you don't need the balls.
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Old 09-01-2015, 16:15   #663
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Yes but all do not offer the same degree of comfort or seaworthiness: A Bavaria 36 will offer much more seaworthiness and comfort than a Catalina 27 and a Bavaria 44 much more than the Bavaria 36 and incomparably more than the Catalina 27.

In what regards modern mass production boats only the ones that cannot afford a boat bigger than 40ft would go on a smaller one. For what I had researched the vast majority that circumnavigate in recent mass production sailboats chose over 40ft boats being probably the average around 45ft and I can only say that I agree with the choice as a good compromise between seaworthiness, speed and cost. If I would chose a production boat to do that I would be looking for recent mass production boats with a length between 42 and 50ft.
Although generally agreeing with what you're saying I would add that the size of the boat should correspond to the owner's ability to handle the boat, not just financially. With size comes exponential complexity which at some pint bite one in the rear. So that now winches are electric, steering systems hydraulic, etc,etc. Personally, having helped to deliver mid-40s boat several times I am not sure that even given financial ability I would go up to that size. I am perfectly comfortable with my 36footer although if a center cockpit 38-40 footer came along as well built and as good of a deal as was my boat I would seriously consider it.
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Old 09-01-2015, 16:21   #664
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
How about a Moore 24? You don't need a modern 40-50 foot boat to sail around the world but if you are sailing a little boat you need some skill and balls. Skill is still in short supply in many cases so add some boat length to make up for it and you can do it in a modern cruiser/racer then you don't need the balls.
Well said.

My first boat was a tough little US27. Had my g/f not shown interest in sailing with me I would have kept that boat and just upgraded her old rigging and systems. Was very tough, very peppy and surprisingly well behaved. The boat not the g/f. After an upgrade would I take it around the world? Probably not but not because it was not tough enough but because I am not at that level yet skills wise.
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Old 09-01-2015, 16:42   #665
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Do you really equate your Allied 30 to a Catalina 27 or Cal 25? I don't.
No, of course not... I was comparing it more to the Catalina 315, which is why I included your reference to that boat in copying your post... The contemporary 31' Production Cruiser about which you said: "Cool little boat. But it's pretty clear what this boat is and what it isn't..."

Certainly, I've made considerable upgrades to my boat, she's been substantially rebuilt in certain respects... Although - as you've pointed out during the discussion elsewhere of the failed Hunter anchor roller/stem fitting - all that work was performed by yours truly, someone who "has no understanding of the engineering or forces involved...", or something to that effect... :-))

Still, it appears you may be close to admitting that a 45 year old production boat from a long defunct builder just might be better suited to taking offshore than the latest and greatest similar-sized "cruiser" from one of the Big 3, no?

:-))
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Old 09-01-2015, 17:24   #666
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Why the hell they have given the design to Bill Tripp and not Bob Perry?
Sounds like they considered it...

Hinckley's new sailboat - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

Hinckley is doing a one-off for the owner of the last SW 42 they built, designed by Bob... That Tripp design isn't even CLOSE... What, has Ferragamo bought Hinckley, too?

:-)

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...ley%20%20perry


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Old 09-01-2015, 17:41   #667
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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It is a kind of a benchmark in what regards American performance cruising boats as it was on the old days the Hincley Bermuda 40.
Still is. Actaea, a refitted 1971 Bermuda 40, is still kicking ass and taking names on the PHRF circuit. Has won the Newport to Bermuda a few times on corrected time and is the nemesis of all big boat PHRF racers here on the Bay, routinely dusting the fleet on distance races.

Then again, it's amazing what @ $1mm in carbon fiber spars and new rigging, racing sails, and a reshaped racing underbody can do for you're ability to sail to and beyond your rating.

You like pictures so I'll add a couple.



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Old 09-01-2015, 17:44   #668
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
Although generally agreeing with what you're saying I would add that the size of the boat should correspond to the owner's ability to handle the boat, not just financially. With size comes exponential complexity which at some pint bite one in the rear. So that now winches are electric, steering systems hydraulic, etc,etc. Personally, having helped to deliver mid-40s boat several times I am not sure that even given financial ability I would go up to that size. I am perfectly comfortable with my 36footer although if a center cockpit 38-40 footer came along as well built and as good of a deal as was my boat I would seriously consider it.
Not all boats are alike and there are some 45/50fters really easy to sail. I agree in what regards older designs.

Even on a modern bigger boat look at how it is easy:

https://www.youtube.com/watcomvaart jachth?v=oSSRsQp0uKQ
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Old 09-01-2015, 17:51   #669
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Still is. Actaea, a refitted 1971 Bermuda 40, is still kicking ass and taking names on the PHRF circuit. Has won the Newport to Bermuda a few times on corrected time and is the nemesis of all big boat PHRF racers here on the Bay, routinely dusting the fleet on distance races.

Then again, it's amazing what @ $1mm in carbon fiber spars and new rigging, racing sails, and a reshaped racing underbody can do.

You like pictures so I'll add a couple.



Timeless design! Years from now when last years wedgy boats are entering the chopping machine these boats will still be around, god they are pretty to the eye! Unfortunately with the newer lighter displacement designs and the elevator sized freeboard it is damn hard to draw pretty lines, some not bad I will say but not pretty.
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Old 09-01-2015, 17:53   #670
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
No, of course not... I was comparing it more to the Catalina 315, which is why I included your reference to that boat in copying your post... The contemporary 31' Production Cruiser about which you said: "Cool little boat. But it's pretty clear what this boat is and what it isn't..."
Oh, I was referring to what Catalina itself says about the 315. Their marketing makes it clear that they don't intend this boat as a blue water cruiser. Here's the award they list:

Quote:
Catalina 315 Wins 2013 Boat of the Year Award.
Best Inshore Cruiser
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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Certainly, I've made considerable upgrades to my boat, she's been substantially rebuilt in certain respects... Although - as you've pointed out during the discussion elsewhere of the failed Hunter anchor roller/stem fitting - all that work was performed by yours truly, someone who "has no understanding of the engineering or forces involved...", or something to that effect... :-))
Do you know the numbers involved in those forces? I have no idea if you're an engineer or not. Maybe you are.

My point was if one is looking at something and assuming it's weak just by the way it looks, he'll probably add some kind of beefing up "just to be sure". But unless he really knows the engineering/construction behind it he's just throwing beef at something to make it look better to his eye. There's no really design or engineering logic behind it. He's guessing. It likely won't "hurt" anything - but it's also likely not necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Still, it appears you may be close to admitting that a 45 year old production boat from a long defunct builder just might be better suited to taking offshore than the latest and greatest similar-sized "cruiser" from one of the Big 3, no?
If you're talking about your boat - I certainly wouldn't say it's not fit for off-shore. I don't know anything about Allied - but yours certainly seems to have served you well.

If you're talking about a 40 year old Catalina 27 - I would definitely say it's not a good idea. Maybe I'm in the minority. But I owned one.
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:00   #671
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
Sounds like they considered it...

Hinckley's new sailboat - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

Hinckley is doing a one-off for the owner of the last SW 42 they built, designed by Bob... That Tripp design isn't even CLOSE... What, has Ferragamo bought Hinckley, too?

:-)
A new custom boat for kdh - Cruising Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

I am glad they didn't and chose to do today a boat as contemporary and advanced as it was the Hinckley Bermuda 40 when it was designed. Hinckley is reliving the past again with a boat that can be as famous and classic in the future as it is the Bermuda 40 today

That Bob Perry design is a nice sailboat but it is an old design in the sense that it could have been designed 30 years ago. Nothing new or fast about it and Hinkley was famous by its fast performance cruisers that become later classics....not by boats that were designed at the time..... as 30 year old classics.
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:02   #672
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Skill is still in short supply in many cases so add some boat length to make up for it and you can do it in a modern cruiser/racer then you don't need the balls.
Or, better yet, an old, heavy "blue water" boat.
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:05   #673
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

All I know about my Morgan 462 is it can take way more than I can and has proven it to me on more than one occasion when I forgot to reef at dark (duh! slap upside of the head and Titans banging on the hull with gigantic sledge hammers). I've been on much finer boats, better equipped vessels, and boats that were much better performers, but my boat has been affordable, easy to access maintainance-wise (though maybe 25-50 % more expensive to haul and paint than my old fin keel but tender speedster).

I bought it in St. Pete and trucked it to Lake Michigan for a couple year shakedown and transition from the thirty footer to the 50 footer (overall). Once I got the hang of it, after about a season or ten to fifteen sails I found it much easier to manage mostly because the guy I bought it from, Quen Cultra (God rest his soul) was a REAL SAILOR and that was my plan. Bought a boat right after he circumnavigated South America and made the owner and the broker put about twenty grand in it before I signed off. (I did pay their asking price but got a proven vessel in like new shape and have enjoyed it ever since.

Now since I been fighting Cancer (apparently successfully) for the last 20 months, I've decided to give up the dream and do something more suited to my age and that's why my boat appears in the "Boats Classified" as "Morgan 462 Cape Horn Vet." i wish I could do it all over again...
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:20   #674
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Not all boats are alike and there are some 45/50fters really easy to sail. I agree in what regards older designs.

Even on a modern bigger boat look at how it is easy:

https://www.youtube.com/watcomvaart jachth?v=oSSRsQp0uKQ
Here is the right link:
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Old 09-01-2015, 18:30   #675
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Or, better yet, an old, heavy "blue water" boat.
Absolutely not even that heavy with a phrf rating about the same as yours
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