Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-01-2015, 09:30   #646
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,576
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Pretty balanced and I agree. If you can circumnavigate in a Cal 25 or a Catalina 27 why would the thought even cross your mind that you couldn't do it in a Bavaria 36 or whatever as that would be a cake walk in comparison to the Catalina and Cal. It is about the sailor and not the boat although if you start dreaming about the high latitudes a really well built boat helps.
Yes but all do not offer the same degree of comfort or seaworthiness: A Bavaria 36 will offer much more seaworthiness and comfort than a Catalina 27 and a Bavaria 44 much more than the Bavaria 36 and incomparably more than the Catalina 27.

In what regards modern mass production boats only the ones that cannot afford a boat bigger than 40ft would go on a smaller one. For what I had researched the vast majority that circumnavigate in recent mass production sailboats chose over 40ft boats being probably the average around 45ft and I can only say that I agree with the choice as a good compromise between seaworthiness, speed and cost. If I would chose a production boat to do that I would be looking for recent mass production boats with a length between 42 and 50ft.
__________________

Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 09:35   #647
Registered User
 
avb3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,908
Images: 1
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Yes but all do not offer the same degree of comfort or seaworthiness: A Bavaria 36 will offer much more seaworthiness and comfort than a Catalina 27 and a Bavaria 44 much more than the Bavaria 36 and incomparably more than the Catalina 27.

In what regards modern mass production boats only the ones that cannot afford a boat bigger than 40ft would go on a smaller one. For what I had researched the vast majority that circumnavigate in recent mass production sailboats chose over 40ft boats being probably the average around 45ft and I can only say that I agree with the choice as a good compromise between seaworthiness, speed and cost. If I would chose a production boat to do that I would be looking for recent mass production boats with a length between 42 and 50ft.
Would you say larger boats are more sea worthy the say, an Albin Vega? After all Matt Rutherford circumnavigated North America and South going around the horn and the Arctic Ocean . The Vega has a great pedigree for being a solid seaworthy boat.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________

__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
avb3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 09:59   #648
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,576
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
For all those decrying the design and building methods of modern production boats and how sub-standard they are compared to "real blue water boats", you really need to take a look at the new Hinckley 50 in this thread:

2015 Hinkley Bermuda 50

Is this Hinckley "fit for blue water"?
That is an odd boat for an American boat, it looks European and besides it has a beamy Carbon Kevlar cored composite hull....came on that is not for cruising!!! That it just a proper material for fragile racing boats and with all that beam will pound a lot upwind, being very uncomfortable on a seaway.

Why the hell they have given the design to Bill Tripp and not Bob Perry?
Everybody knows that while Bob continues to design American sailboats while Bill sold is soul to Europeans and designs mostly Euro style boats for European brands like Solaris and Baltic.





https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...85053436686445
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 10:02   #649
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,822
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That is an odd boat for an American boat, it looks European and besides it has a beamy Carbon Kevlar cored composite hull....came on that is not for cruising!!! That it just a proper material for fragile racing boats and with all that beam will pound a lot upwind, being very uncomfortable on a seaway.

Why the hell they have given the design to Bill Tripp and not Bob Perry?
Everybody knows that while Bob continues to design American sailboats while Bill sold is soul to Europeans and designs mostly Euro style boats for European brands like Solaris and Baltic.





https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...85053436686445
Good to see you are finally learning something here my friend!
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 10:15   #650
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,576
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Would you say larger boats are more sea worthy the say, an Albin Vega? After all Matt Rutherford circumnavigated North America and South going around the horn and the Arctic Ocean . The Vega has a great pedigree for being a solid seaworthy boat.
..
Essentially I agree with a64pilot and Dockhead particularly regarding size and seaworthiness:

Originally Posted by a64pilot
"I doubt you will find any "production" boat having an un-seaworthy design."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I agree.

Above a certain size, any cruising boat made will be reasonably capable of sailing in most places and most conditions, so most people really can really just buy whatever they like without worrying too much about seaworthiness.

Which doesn't mean that they are all equal, however, which would be a big, fat, logical fallacy. There is a wide range of strength and seaworthiness available on the market starting from "pretty good, and plenty good enough for most purposes" all the way to "extremely strong and designed for extreme conditions", and everything in between.

And price is not always a reliable guide, or even brand of boat. ...
...
Size. All other things being equal, a boat becomes dramatically more seaworthy as it gets bigger. One of the secrets to modern boat design is that the typical cruising boat, which was 32' a few decades ago, is now over 40', and thus can be much lighter and more cheaply made without any loss of seaworthiness, compared to the old 32' tanks. As a bonus, the typical 40-odd foot inexpensive cruising boat of today will sail rings around the typical 32-footer of yore. This is a win-win situation. So many sailors might rationally choose a 50' mass production boat over say a 38' high end boat of the same cost, and get far better accomodation and incomparably more speed for the same money, with no loss of seaworthiness (and maybe even a net gain of seaworthiness).
...
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 10:58   #651
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Pretty balanced and I agree. If you can circumnavigate in a Cal 25 or a Catalina 27 why would the thought even cross your mind that you couldn't do it in a Bavaria 36 or whatever as that would be a cake walk in comparison to the Catalina and Cal. It is about the sailor and not the boat although if you start dreaming about the high latitudes a really well built boat helps.
You keep bringing up old boats like the Catalina 27. As I've said many times, I owned one and there is no way I'd take that boat into "blue water" without some serious attention first. And, because of that requirement, I certainly would never advocated it as "fit for blue water". I don't think it was ever marketed as such either.

You'll notice that Catalina's current 27 is a "sport boat" marketed essentially as a day-sailer/racer:

Quote:
Maybe you want to recapture the pure joy of sailing in a simpler but stylish boat that doesn’t require much effort or crew to get you out on the water…

Maybe you no longer need the amenities or complications of a larger boat just to enjoy an afternoon out on the water with a few friends…

Maybe a pretty and fast boat will just be more fun to own!


The smallest boat they have right now that is marketed as a "cruising boat" is the 315 (but you'll notice it's not part of the "Ocean Series" which starts at 38' - and it was awarded best "Inshore Cruiser"):





Cool little boat. But it's pretty clear what this boat is and what it isn't.

So, let's be careful bringing in these small old production boats from the '70's. I don't think they're relevant to this conversation.
__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 10:58   #652
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,822
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Originally Posted by Polux
That is an odd boat for an American boat, it looks European and besides it has a beamy Carbon Kevlar cored composite hull....came on that is not for cruising!!! That it just a proper material for fragile racing boats and with all that beam will pound a lot upwind, being very uncomfortable on a seaway.

Why the hell they have given the design to Bill Tripp and not Bob Perry?
Everybody knows that while Bob continues to design American sailboats while Bill sold is soul to Europeans and designs mostly Euro style boats for European brands like Solaris and Baltic.

Now my friend you should know better. Bill Trip senior had a long and very close association with Hinckley Yachts having designed what many think was one of the prettiest sailboats in history the Bermuda 40. It is natural that they use Bill Trip junior for their new products. You can be sure if Hinckley builds it whether it is cored or solid glass it will be done properly but I do have to agree with you flat beamy hulls do pound upwind, nothing much you can do about that. Bob Perry on the otherhand in case you didn't know has never had a relationship with Hinckley so I'm not sure what your point is??
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 11:10   #653
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Would you say larger boats are more sea worthy the say, an Albin Vega? After all Matt Rutherford circumnavigated North America and South going around the horn and the Arctic Ocean . The Vega has a great pedigree for being a solid seaworthy boat.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
So are you advocating that newbs should buy a $500 Albin Vega and head out?

I think that's bad advice.
__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 11:24   #654
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
You can be sure if Hinckley builds it whether it is cored or solid glass it will be done properly...
Heh-heh. Okay. I love the irony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Bob Perry on the otherhand in case you didn't know has never had a relationship with Hinckley so I'm not sure what your point is??
Bob designs fantastic, elegant boats. A perfect mixture of traditional and modern. He'd be a perfect fit. They missed out.
__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 11:34   #655
Registered User
 
avb3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,908
Images: 1
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So are you advocating that newbs should buy a $500 Albin Vega and head out?

I think that's bad advice.
No, I would definitely step up to the $750 model.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
avb3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 12:52   #656
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,822
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You keep bringing up old boats like the Catalina 27. As I've said many times, I owned one and there is no way I'd take that boat into "blue water" without some serious attention first. And, because of that requirement, I certainly would never advocated it as "fit for blue water". I don't think it was ever marketed as such either.

You'll notice that Catalina's current 27 is a "sport boat" marketed essentially as a day-sailer/racer:





The smallest boat they have right now that is marketed as a "cruising boat" is the 315 (but you'll notice it's not part of the "Ocean Series" which starts at 38' - and it was awarded best "Inshore Cruiser"):





Cool little boat. But it's pretty clear what this boat is and what it isn't.

So, let's be careful bringing in these small old production boats from the '70's. I don't think they're relevant to this conversation.
Actually I think they are very relative because its not a big deal to cross an ocean in the trade wind belt, it is a much bigger deal to circumnavigate via the Great Capes sailing the Southern oceans. Sure these little boats will do it because of course they have done it which should send the message that modern production boats will have nothing to worry about....that and its really about the sailor. Every now and then you can get yourself into situations that require or dare I say demand a really stout boat then all bets are off. R
__________________
robert sailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 13:17   #657
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Okay - I'm now going to wade into what, perhaps, might be "sensitive territory" on this subject...that is:

What's up with Catalina?

We've mostly talked about the European brands and Hunters thus far. Why is that? Why is Catalina an "also-ran" in these production boat discussions?

Remember, I'm a production boat proponent. And as a dude in the US - I'm definitely pulling for the US-based brands. So, as an-ex Catalina owner who actually loved his boat, let me lay out a few thoughts on this to get it started, then I'd really like to get some other Catalina owners' viewpoints into this thread.

1. Quality
I have heard nothing but good things about Catalina's quality overall. I've heard their customer service is great. They rarely get "bashed" in the forums. You don't hear of many failures (keel, rudder, etc.) on their boats. And, looking at the used market, they really do a much better job of holding their value over time than their competitors seem to. They have a really strong brand. But....

2. Marketing
Let's face it, when compared to the European brands, Catalina's marketing sucks. I have a fairly good deal of experience in this arena - and know sucky from non-sucky. Just look at their website.

Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts

It's seriously dated and clumsy. For a modern yacht company - it presents as the orthopedic shoes of boats. Actually, I take that back, Dr. Scholl's has a sexier website than Catalina. But you get the point.

Why? Why would Catalina allow themselves to get so far behind in branding and market positioning? Is their market share that strong?

3. Performance
You just don't hear a lot about it. So what's the deal?

4. Pricing
Their new boat pricing seems to be a bit higher than their competitors. Is this because they don't cater to or build for the charter market? Does this difference relate directly to increased quality/performance - or limitations on build processes, procurement power, etc.?

Their used pricing - the fact that they hold their value pretty well - is actually a double-edged sword. When I first started boat-shopping I was continually looking for Catalinas in my price-range. But very few Catalinas showed up in that range. Well, there were TONS of older 36s and 38s - but very little in the 40' range like the Beneteaus, Jeanneaus, Hunters, etc. that I was seeing.

In other words, they are "expensive" used boats when compared to everything else out there. Again, this is both good (for the owners) and bad (for the buyers). But my question is - does this mean the market is small and/or shrinking for Catalinas?

I want to reiterate. I'm a fan of Catalina. I'm just kind of mystified why they are not a more formidable brand in the production boat market. I see absolutely no reason that they can't be. So I'm interested in what owners think is going on.
__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 13:20   #658
cruiser

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,132
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Actually I think they are very relative because its not a big deal to cross an ocean in the trade wind belt, it is a much bigger deal to circumnavigate via the Great Capes sailing the Southern oceans. Sure these little boats will do it because of course they have done it which should send the message that modern production boats will have nothing to worry about....that and its really about the sailor. Every now and then you can get yourself into situations that require or dare I say demand a really stout boat then all bets are off. R
Okay - you guys can continue to recommend these daysailer and inshore cruising boats for blue water cruising if you want - but I think that's really bad advice. The company behind them certainly doesn't agree with you.
__________________
smackdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 14:04   #659
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,576
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Originally Posted by Polux
That is an odd boat for an American boat, it looks European and besides it has a beamy Carbon Kevlar cored composite hull....came on that is not for cruising!!! That it just a proper material for fragile racing boats and with all that beam will pound a lot upwind, being very uncomfortable on a seaway.

Why the hell they have given the design to Bill Tripp and not Bob Perry?
Everybody knows that while Bob continues to design American sailboats while Bill sold is soul to Europeans and designs mostly Euro style boats for European brands like Solaris and Baltic.


Now my friend you should know better. Bill Trip senior had a long and very close association with Hinckley Yachts having designed what many think was one of the prettiest sailboats in history the Bermuda 40. It is natural that they use Bill Trip junior for their new products. You can be sure if Hinckley builds it whether it is cored or solid glass it will be done properly but I do have to agree with you flat beamy hulls do pound upwind, nothing much you can do about that. Bob Perry on the otherhand in case you didn't know has never had a relationship with Hinckley so I'm not sure what your point is??
Just being sarcastic, I love the boat as I love Bill Tripp designs, also love the new Hinckley that is a contemporary design. There are no such thing as Euro style, only contemporary designs and old ones, even when they are made today.

By the way, a beamy boat does not mean the boat to pound upwind. This boat has the beam pulled back, what counts in what regards pounding is not the aft part of the hull but the bow and forward sections with the boat heeled and those are quite sharp. A pity the boat to be necessarily very expensive, even so I hope Americans buy it. It is a kind of a benchmark in what regards American performance cruising boats as it was on the old days the Hincley Bermuda 40.

Not very different from what Solaris doe in Europe and I love Solaris too.
Polux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 15:28   #660
Eternal Member

Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 848
Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

The smallest boat they have right now that is marketed as a "cruising boat" is the 315 (but you'll notice it's not part of the "Ocean Series" which starts at 38' - and it was awarded best "Inshore Cruiser"):





Cool little boat. But it's pretty clear what this boat is and what it isn't.

So, let's be careful bringing in these small old production boats from the '70's. I don't think they're relevant to this conversation.


Hmmm, should I be outraged? Has my little tub just been BASHED?

:-)

Considering the fact that the first ever cirmumnavigation in a fiberglass boat was performed by a 30' Allied Seawind built in 1962, some may find that dismissal of a particular category of boat somewhat ironic...

Moreover, as one who sails another 30' production boat from Allied built in 1970, guess I'd better re-think this whole "Bluewater Cruising" thing...

:-))





Yup, rarely a day passes, where I don't learn something new on an internet sailing forum... Guess I better stick to motoring down the ICW from now on...

:-))
__________________

__________________
Jon Eisberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
water

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Production Boats vs Custom Boats seaturkey Monohull Sailboats 64 07-01-2015 07:23
Older, Higher Quality vs Newer Production Boats scevrog Monohull Sailboats 62 21-10-2010 03:23
Hunter 37.6 - Fit for Blue Water Cruising ? saltiepaw Monohull Sailboats 10 22-07-2010 14:12
production boats vs blue water cruisiers judithanne Monohull Sailboats 30 29-09-2005 07:53
More production boats BC Mike Monohull Sailboats 2 24-03-2005 18:29


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:24.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.