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Old 08-01-2015, 10:57   #631
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Some of the comments here are puzzles!

"OK that went by me because I don't see any difference between cruising up wind and delivering up wind"

Cruising upwind is done at a comfortable pace, apparent wind angle, and if not fun - not done at all.

We left La Paz, Mexico headed for Bara de Navidad, which was 500+ miles to the SE. The "normal" NE winds did not blow and for many days we had 15 knots from the SE. By the time 10-days had elapsed we were 250 miles NW of our starting point because 'cruising' 500 miles up wind was not so much fun.

Sailing upwind from Cabo to San Diego we would sit for days at a time waiting for the correct winds and then beat feet at night and duck into harbor during the afternoon to avoid the 15-25 knot wind dead on the nose.

The deliveries I have done did not allow those options. The owner is paying for your time so you GO no matter how uncomfortable, unless it is damaging the boat.

"You're missing the point. The number of boats that have done it is immaterial. The ARC is a milkrun with comparatively benign conditions. It's not a test of anything, 99% of the time, other than how well your boat goes downwind in 15-20 knots of steady breeze."

I imagine the same can be said for the US West Coast to Hawaii and Western Mexico to the South Pacific.

I think the original question was about Blue Water cruisers rather than HIGH Latitude Survival sailing or Roaring 40's sailing. I thought we were discussing oceanic passages that most cruisers follow.
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Old 08-01-2015, 11:46   #632
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
Some of the comments here are puzzles!

"OK that went by me because I don't see any difference between cruising up wind and delivering up wind"

Cruising upwind is done at a comfortable pace, apparent wind angle, and if not fun - not done at all.

We left La Paz, Mexico headed for Bara de Navidad, which was 500+ miles to the SE. The "normal" NE winds did not blow and for many days we had 15 knots from the SE. By the time 10-days had elapsed we were 250 miles NW of our starting point because 'cruising' 500 miles up wind was not so much fun.

Sailing upwind from Cabo to San Diego we would sit for days at a time waiting for the correct winds and then beat feet at night and duck into harbor during the afternoon to avoid the 15-25 knot wind dead on the nose.

The deliveries I have done did not allow those options. The owner is paying for your time so you GO no matter how uncomfortable, unless it is damaging the boat.

"You're missing the point. The number of boats that have done it is immaterial. The ARC is a milkrun with comparatively benign conditions. It's not a test of anything, 99% of the time, other than how well your boat goes downwind in 15-20 knots of steady breeze."

I imagine the same can be said for the US West Coast to Hawaii and Western Mexico to the South Pacific.

I think the original question was about Blue Water cruisers rather than HIGH Latitude Survival sailing or Roaring 40's sailing. I thought we were discussing oceanic passages that most cruisers follow.
I agree with your example of the Baja bash and I know its true but I was talking about offshore deliveries compared to coastal deliveries. I don't see any difference in cruising offshore and boat delivery offshore.
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Old 08-01-2015, 12:46   #633
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I agree with your example of the Baja bash and I know its true but I was talking about offshore deliveries compared to coastal deliveries. I don't see any difference in cruising offshore and boat delivery offshore.
Less of a difference but if you are cruising and have to make a passage or cross an ocean you can wait a month or more for the right weather window. If you are delivering boats and wait a month you are not making a living out of it
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Old 08-01-2015, 13:01   #634
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Less of a difference but if you are cruising and have to make a passage or cross an ocean you can wait a month or more for the right weather window. If you are delivering boats and wait a month you are not making a living out of it
Some truth to what you say if you are comparing delivering a boat out of season compared to in season. Very few delivery guys will cross an ocean out of season. As far as weather windows, not including the Atlantic crossing which I admit is very easy but still very changeable you can only count on the first few days of a forecast, after that it is all up for change. I have sailed the route from Hawaii to British Columbia 4 times and it always changed from the original forecast. Same as sailing to New Zealand, just too much going on to actually be able to forecast that far out in those areas.

So to sum up we were talking about sailing upwind in the open ocean and I simply said it is the same whether you are cruising or delivering a boat and to me it is still the same.
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Old 08-01-2015, 14:29   #635
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Some truth to what you say if you are comparing delivering a boat out of season compared to in season. Very few delivery guys will cross an ocean out of season. As far as weather windows, not including the Atlantic crossing which I admit is very easy but still very changeable you can only count on the first few days of a forecast, after that it is all up for change. I have sailed the route from Hawaii to British Columbia 4 times and it always changed from the original forecast. Same as sailing to New Zealand, just too much going on to actually be able to forecast that far out in those areas.

So to sum up we were talking about sailing upwind in the open ocean and I simply said it is the same whether you are cruising or delivering a boat and to me it is still the same.
Robert, I think you are exaggerating. For instance last year they waited almost 3 weeks for starting the Mini Transat (France - Brazil). Yes they cannot have a weather forecast for all Transat but there, like on a Transat from Canary to Martinique, the first week is the more complicated one in what regards the possibility of really bad weather and yes you can have a reliable prediction for a week weather with some reasonable accuracy.
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Old 08-01-2015, 14:35   #636
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Robert, I think you are exaggerating. For instance last year they waited almost 3 weeks for starting the Mini Transat (France - Brazil). Yes they cannot have a weather forecast for all Transat but there, like on a Transat from Canary to Martinique, the first week is the more complicated one in what regards the possibility of really bad weather and yes you can have a reliable prediction for a week weather with some reasonable accuracy.
I agree the first week is your best bet but after that the bets are off HOWEVER I don't know what this has to do with the original post of the difference between delivery skippers sailing upwind offshore and a cruising skipper sailing upwind offshore?? It has nothing to do with bad weather or when you leave, go read the other post it was simply about sailing upwind and no I don't think there is any difference!
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Old 08-01-2015, 14:49   #637
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I agree the first week is your best bet but after that the bets are off HOWEVER I don't know what this has to do with the original post of the difference between delivery skippers sailing upwind offshore and a cruising skipper sailing upwind offshore?? It has nothing to do with bad weather or when you leave, go read the other post it was simply about sailing upwind and no I don't think there is any difference!

And there is no much diference, delivery skippers need to take care of the boat same as you or me, and a isue due bad seamanship or wrong decisions can wreck a skipper career in short time, they sail boats in the wrong season but they are used to do that , they wait for weather like you and me, they reef the sails like you and me and they try to take care of the boat like you and me, Madmax skippers have a short run in the bussines...
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Old 08-01-2015, 14:57   #638
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I agree the first week is your best bet but after that the bets are off HOWEVER I don't know what this has to do with the original post of the difference between delivery skippers sailing upwind offshore and a cruising skipper sailing upwind offshore?? It has nothing to do with bad weather or when you leave, go read the other post it was simply about sailing upwind and no I don't think there is any difference!
There are many types of offshore passages. You will agree that a delivery skipper makes many smaller offshore passages for each time that he does one that crosses oceans. On smaller passages the weather window can be defined with a reasonable precision.

If the conditions are not good but manageable, the delivery skipper, that is working and making a living of it, will do it. It will not be agreeable but he is not sailing for pleasure, or at least not sailing on nasty (but manageable) conditions for pleasure but for money and a living. The cruiser that is sailing for pleasure will wait till the conditions will allow him to enjoy the passage.

I believe that clearly there is a difference here.
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Old 08-01-2015, 15:07   #639
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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There are many types of offshore passages. You will agree that a delivery skipper makes many smaller offshore passages for each time that he does one that crosses oceans. On smaller passages the weather window can be defined with a reasonable precision.

If the conditions are not good but manageable, the delivery skipper, that is working and making a living of it, will do it. It will not be agreeable but he is not sailing for pleasure, or at least not sailing on nasty (but manageable) conditions for pleasure but for money and a living. The cruiser that is sailing for pleasure will wait till the conditions will allow him to enjoy the passage.

I believe that clearly there is a difference here.
Have you been married a long time?? Whats with the having to be right syndrome?? Cook up any sea state you like to make your point but I can assure you that when sailing offshore in larger seas an experienced cruiser does it just like an experienced delivery skipper, its not rocket science. No one wants to kick the **** out of their boat and themselves or someone else's boat and themselves but if it will end the debate you are right!
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Old 08-01-2015, 16:40   #640
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Have you been married a long time?? Whats with the having to be right syndrome?? Cook up any sea state you like to make your point but I can assure you that when sailing offshore in larger seas an experienced cruiser does it just like an experienced delivery skipper, its not rocket science. No one wants to kick the **** out of their boat and themselves or someone else's boat and themselves but if it will end the debate you are right!
A debate has not to be disagreeable and this one is not. Yes I am married for a long time. The first one did not fit and did not last long but the second one was the right one and I am married for almost a lifetime

Regarding the sea condition, yes when you have to sail on nasty seas that's the same thing for a delivery skipper or a cruiser. A delivery skipper has to do that more times then a cruiser and in what regards me if I want my wife to continue to sail with me I cannot even sail upwind when it seems fit to me, or when I know I would have fun but when I know that she will not be badly seasick and hating every minute of it.

Each year on the passage from Italy to Greece (or vice verse) that I normally make from Vulcano Island to Jackinthos Island, a 3 day passage if I am lucky, I will only do it if the wind is not over 15 to 20K. On each direction always lots of upwind sailing. If I was alone I would go anytime that is not blowing over 25K and that is almost any time in the summer.

Now, delivery skippers don't deliver boats with their wives aboard do they?
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Old 08-01-2015, 20:24   #641
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Now, delivery skippers don't deliver boats with their wives aboard do they?
In my case yes, 2 Lagoons, a 380 and 440 with my wife from Olone to Martinique...
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Old 09-01-2015, 04:20   #642
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Another Bavaria this time a Bavaria 38 cruiser (2004) that circumnavigated ( three years) with a German couple: Stefan Bormann and Carola Bormann.









Weltumsegelung der SY Blue Pearl
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Old 09-01-2015, 04:30   #643
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Bobby Schenk seems to be the German parallel of Andy Schell, beside having circumnavigated on the old times (1967) navigated extensively after that, on the Pacific, Antartic, made the horn several times and after retired (Judge in Germany) lived and sailed 10 years on a cat before turning to monos again. He had wrote a lot of books about boats and navigation and collaborates with the Yacht De, one of the biggest Yacht magazines and has a very popular site where he gives advise.

Some good and experienced advise regarding boats suited for bluewater sailing and a circumnavigation:

"The boats are all better, bigger and perhaps more seaworthy, at any rate faster than the former timber and heavy steel boats.... Of course, the quality of today's production boats that - despite all its shortcomings - regularly are miles better than the boats on the last century....

Today it is no longer a feat to select a suitable vessel. If the size is correct (let's say between eight and 14 meters) there is no offshore yacht on the market that would be potentially inappropriate for a circumnavigation on the trade route. Whether plastic, aluminum or steel, all fit for a circumnavigation out of high latitudes. A good used around the cans cruiser-racer or an ex-charter boat from a reputable company will be suitable for it...

..Production boats are sometimes better than high-priced (complicated) luxury yachts. Above all, do not forget: If a yacht is good enough for the North Sea, it is good enough for Passage sailing. Its the crew that makes a "good bluewater yacht"."


Weltumsegelung light von Bobby Schenk
homepage von Weltumsegler Bobby Schenk
I would submit that Mr. Schenks comments just about says it all....................
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Old 09-01-2015, 04:41   #644
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I would submit that Mr. Schenks comments just about says it all....................
Pretty balanced and I agree. If you can circumnavigate in a Cal 25 or a Catalina 27 why would the thought even cross your mind that you couldn't do it in a Bavaria 36 or whatever as that would be a cake walk in comparison to the Catalina and Cal. It is about the sailor and not the boat although if you start dreaming about the high latitudes a really well built boat helps.
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:19   #645
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

For all those decrying the design and building methods of modern production boats and how sub-standard they are compared to "real blue water boats", you really need to take a look at the new Hinckley 50 in this thread:

2015 Hinkley Bermuda 50

Is this Hinckley "fit for blue water"?
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