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Old 07-01-2015, 15:13   #616
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

This is not a mass production boat, just a production one, one of these had circumnavigated. I don't have desire for doing a circumnavigation, but I guess that one of this possibly would give me the desire to do one:

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Old 07-01-2015, 15:20   #617
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Jon alluded to it above. Yes, the cardinal rule is "don't break the boat". But the reason that is the cardinal rule is that most deliveries are on a far tighter schedule than a cruiser will have. Therefore, the boat is typically pushed harder than a cruiser will push it. When you're cruising on your own schedule, you can take it much easier.

You'll even remember this being a consideration on Rebel Heart in the early part of their voyage. During the day, Eric would fall off to mellow things out for his family. Then at night when they were asleep, he'd tighten it up to get more VMG.

That's what I mean.
OK I see what you were thinking but in my experience that's not what happens with many cruisers, most cruisers sail the boat 24/7 pretty much the same way as do the delivery guys. Offshore you want a boat that can go upwind but its not like racing. Sailing hard on the wind is fun and exciting for coastal cruisers but unless the seas are mellow the offshore sailors will not point anywhere near as high as they can if the winds are blowing. They will fall off a bit so that the boat is not beating the hell out of you and is riding the waves much nicer, your VMG is still good because you are getting less leeway but still it is not a comfortable, its wet, its hard to cook and its bloody noisy, I really don't find any joy in it whatsoever. Delivery guys sail the same way. RH was a unique case because that boat doesn't go upwind well to begin with so us footing off was probably like them beating.
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Old 07-01-2015, 15:21   #618
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Jon alluded to it above. Yes, the cardinal rule is "don't break the boat".
Having followed Jon's delivery adventures over the years, I found that comment to be highly ironic!

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Old 07-01-2015, 15:55   #619
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I think it will be basically Lagoon mostly and then Fountain Pajot and then probably Leopard catamarans. It seems to me that Gemini are less suited for bluewater sailing due to their very small beam (for a cat) and smaller size.

FoPaLagoLeo is a good one, but I think it would be more Lagofoupaleop
Seems most production catamarans 39-40 ft and upward are considered capable blue water cruisers with appropriate preparation have circumnavigated and regularly cross oceans although not necessarily the southern ocean latitudes.

Possibly more Outremers have circumnavigated as Polux suggested by the fast french.

Then proberbly more Lagoon 380's and 440's than most others. In Australia we also see plenty of FP's and Catana's as well and plenty of Leopards. Was a FP Salina 48 that did the NW passage a year ago. Also many of the earlier 40 ft Lagoons before the L380's.

Amongst the Australian built cats a Lightwave 45 did the full World ARC and there have been several of the small Seawind 1000's crossing oceans. I personally would be happier in a Seawind 1000 vs Gemini in bluewater conditions. Heaps of Seawind 1160's have circumnavigated Aust and have had to contend with the southern ocean stretch between Perth and Tasmania.

For some reason as Mark has indicated blue water seems a non issue in the multihull world. Mate of mine is crossing the Alantic as we speak in a Lagoon 440.

Bluewater - a non issue

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Old 07-01-2015, 16:52   #620
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Having followed Jon's delivery adventures over the years, I found that comment to be highly ironic!

Mark
As always, I advise others to do what I say, not what I do... :-))

No question, I am the Absolute Master of breaking things, simply by Turning Them On... Hence, my preference for keeping my own boat simple, the fewer buttons to push, the better...

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Old 07-01-2015, 16:59   #621
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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the fewer buttons to push, the better...
Except when it comes to these types of threads, I presume…

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Old 08-01-2015, 07:33   #622
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Except when it comes to these types of threads, I presume…

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Smartass.... :-))

"Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug..."

With regards to buttons on sailing forums, sometimes you're the pusher, other times the pushee...

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Old 08-01-2015, 08:13   #623
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Based upon our debate elsewhere re the comparative merits of the Caribbean 1500 vs. Salty Dawg Rallies, I gather you have considerable respect for Andy Schell, correct?
..
Bobby Schenk seems to be the German parallel of Andy Schell, beside having circumnavigated on the old times (1967) navigated extensively after that, on the Pacific, Antartic, made the horn several times and after retired (Judge in Germany) lived and sailed 10 years on a cat before turning to monos again. He had wrote a lot of books about boats and navigation and collaborates with the Yacht De, one of the biggest Yacht magazines and has a very popular site where he gives advise.

Some good and experienced advise regarding boats suited for bluewater sailing and a circumnavigation:

"The boats are all better, bigger and perhaps more seaworthy, at any rate faster than the former timber and heavy steel boats.... Of course, the quality of today's production boats that - despite all its shortcomings - regularly are miles better than the boats on the last century....

Today it is no longer a feat to select a suitable vessel. If the size is correct (let's say between eight and 14 meters) there is no offshore yacht on the market that would be potentially inappropriate for a circumnavigation on the trade route. Whether plastic, aluminum or steel, all fit for a circumnavigation out of high latitudes. A good used around the cans cruiser-racer or an ex-charter boat from a reputable company will be suitable for it...

..Production boats are sometimes better than high-priced (complicated) luxury yachts. Above all, do not forget: If a yacht is good enough for the North Sea, it is good enough for Passage sailing. Its the crew that makes a "good bluewater yacht"."


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Old 08-01-2015, 08:22   #624
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I don't see where he said things break or that they are unsuitable. I only see where he, personally, is uncomfortable upwind in them.

I'm uncomfortable downwind in most old "blue water" boats because they roll their guts out - does that count?

Mark
I'd say both comments count since they help people decide which type of boat they would prefer to cruise on. These are only well-recognized trade-offs, after all, not criminal indictments. And as Polux has commented, not all of what Andy Schell refers to as "standard" production boats have those upwind characteristics, just like not all old bluewater boats roll downwind as much as others. On my boat, for example, I've learned I can often mitigate the downwind rolling by playing with my sail configuration and/or slightly altering course. The only generalization one might be able to make is that the older boats tend to be built heavier and that often adds to a more comfortable motion. But that comes with its own trade-offs, obviously.
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Old 08-01-2015, 08:26   #625
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pirate Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Jon alluded to it above. Yes, the cardinal rule is "don't break the boat". But the reason that is the cardinal rule is that most deliveries are on a far tighter schedule than a cruiser will have. Therefore, the boat is typically pushed harder than a cruiser will push it. When you're cruising on your own schedule, you can take it much easier.

You'll even remember this being a consideration on Rebel Heart in the early part of their voyage. During the day, Eric would fall off to mellow things out for his family. Then at night when they were asleep, he'd tighten it up to get more VMG.

That's what I mean.
And that's plain silly...
How much sleep will they get bouncing around all night if they could not cope with it by day when awake..
Also.. dusk is when one reefs down.. not cranks up.. so your ready for the beast outa the dark.. he's always lurking..
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Old 08-01-2015, 08:49   #626
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

And another Bavaria 44 cruiser(2003) that circumnavigated. This model:

The boat is called Juba and is sailed by a German couple, Uwe und Birgit Strüwing . First the Juba was a Bavaria 36 and with it they they sailed in the autumn the Bay of Biscay and made 2006 ARC. Stayed five years sailing in the Caribbean and on the summer went back to their home waters on the Baltic Sea.
In 2011 with a bigger Juba, a Bavaria 44, they started a circumnavigation. After 35,000 nautical they returned in 2013 to their Home port of Ralswiek.

Uwe is a civil engineer by profession and has been sailing since the 70's Birgit is a teacher by profession and has been sailing 1994th.

They welcome paying guests on their boat and as they seem very nice and obviously know one or two things about sailing, passing some time with them can be a great way to discover the Baltic waters and improve sailing skills at least for the more inexperienced.

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Old 08-01-2015, 09:13   #627
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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No, if it is not just one or two but dozens and dozens certainly prove the ability of those boats doing that on a routine basis meaning they are suited for it.
You're missing the point. The number of boats that have done it is immaterial. The ARC is a milkrun with comparatively benign conditions. It's not a test of anything, 99% of the time, other than how well your boat goes downwind in 15-20 knots of steady breeze. I'm pretty sure Kon Tiki could do the ARC without much of an issue.
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Old 08-01-2015, 10:41   #628
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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And that's plain silly...
How much sleep will they get bouncing around all night if they could not cope with it by day when awake..
Also.. dusk is when one reefs down.. not cranks up.. so your ready for the beast outa the dark.. he's always lurking..
Sorry - I wasn't advocating RH's techniques and choices. Not by any means. I was just making the point that on a delivery the time factors, and resulting sailing choices, are typically very different than when cruising.
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Old 08-01-2015, 10:46   #629
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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You're missing the point. The number of boats that have done it is immaterial. The ARC is a milkrun with comparatively benign conditions. It's not a test of anything, 99% of the time, other than how well your boat goes downwind in 15-20 knots of steady breeze. I'm pretty sure Kon Tiki could do the ARC without much of an issue.
It seems it is you that are missing the point and not paying attention: I am not posting boats that have made the ARC. I am posting boats that circumnavigated. The number of cruisers that circumnavigated is not that big.
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Old 08-01-2015, 10:46   #630
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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You're missing the point. The number of boats that have done it is immaterial. The ARC is a milkrun with comparatively benign conditions. It's not a test of anything, 99% of the time, other than how well your boat goes downwind in 15-20 knots of steady breeze. I'm pretty sure Kon Tiki could do the ARC without much of an issue.
"Immaterial"? Then your standards for "what counts" for blue water cruising are very different than most people's. But, of course, they are yours - so you're welcome to them.
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