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Old 07-01-2015, 10:48   #601
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
A bit, but it mostly comes down to performance camp vs accommodations camp - so it is different than what goes on in these threads.

There really isn't the "BeneHunterLina" thing so much, although Gemini's are often debated as for correct usage - with even most of the Gemini proponents recognizing some of the issues with size, etc of that boat.

Even in those debates, they usually go like "you might be better off in the same size and for the same money with a PDQ or Prout" - and not like "you need an Oyster instead of a Hunter".

In general, any multihull threads will be filled with BWC monohull proponents screaming at the top of their lungs about how bad and dangerous multihulls are, and how often and easily they flip.

It is a relief when threads like this appear because they all go stampeding out of the multihull threads, trampling over themselves to get into these threads.

Which, of course, proves that production monohulls are more dangerous than all multihulls.

Most of us learned to ignore them ages ago - we just smile and wave at them as we pass.

Mark
Heh-heh. I'm glad I could be of service. Smile and wave. Smile and wave.
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Old 07-01-2015, 10:53   #602
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Actually this does absolutely become statistically valid when people are saying it can't or shouldn't be done in such-and-such boat.

The rest of your post was pretty well reasoned. Beyond this point above, it's all a very subjective debate.
To be statistically valid, we need to ensure that the dataset looked at is of sufficient size.

As we are dealing with an unknown data set, one cannot categorically state there is any statistical relevance made.





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Old 07-01-2015, 10:54   #603
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I think it will be basically Lagoon mostly and then Fountain Pajot and then probably Leopard catamarans. It seems to me that Gemini are less suited for bluewater sailing due to their very small beam (for a cat) and smaller size.
Yeah - there was a young couple that took a Gemini around the world. I think it was called SlapDash or something. They had a few problems with it, like the Bumfuzzles had with their multi, but they made it.
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Old 07-01-2015, 10:58   #604
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
To be statistically valid, we need to ensure that the dataset looked at is of sufficient size.

As we are dealing with an unknown data set, one cannot categorically state there is any statistical relevance made.
Okay, let me make it simpler for you...if there is a steady drumming of "it can't/shouldn't be done" from the BWC, here are the numbers:

1. Could/Should = 0
2. Got Lucky = ~1-5
2. Actually Have = Hundreds (maybe more)

Do you need more data?
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:03   #605
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I used "real" Naval Bronze manufactured at a USA plant where I could speak to the company metallurgist who provided the compound data sheet. My father is a retired metallurgist. I also researched a reputable plant in Italy at the time. I chose interior Maralon fittings for corrosion resistance and exterior naval Bronze for it's impact strength and longevity. You can choose whatever you like for your boat, these were the best informed choices I felt for my boat. Others, may choose differently for their boat.

But I didn't feel comfortable with the choices most European builders were making for customer boats 12 years ago. So I switched everything out for new to be safe.
I guess I'm still a bit confused on this. Are you saying that you did't trust what Oyster put on their boat - and thought it to be potentially unsafe? That's telling. Why do you trust the rest of the boat?
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:56   #606
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
..

Honestly, I'd love to see examples of "production multis" in this thread.
So if you ask, you will served and a good one since it is with the worst of cats, firstly because it is the one that is make in bigger numbers (Lagoon) and secondly because it is an old model that should by now falling to pieces, a Lagoon 42 with 23 years of age.



I mean not one circumnavigation but two (two boats). They are French Canadiens families and like the French it seems they like to go fast and faraway. They have done a circumnavigation from 2005 to 2014 . On Ushuaia the "crew" was Charly, Isabelle, Thibaud, Bastien and Laura. On Aupaluk, Franck, Nathalie, Claire and Yann .



Ushuaia - tour du monde ? la voile
Ushuaia - tour du monde ? la voile

Apaluk started the circumnavigation as a Lagoon 42 (1992) and finished as Apaluck II, a Lagoon 47 (2004). The first one was sold on New Zealand.


AUPALUK II
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Old 07-01-2015, 12:00   #607
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Now that actually makes we want a cat even more for my next boat. Very cool.
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Old 07-01-2015, 12:18   #608
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
To be statistically valid, we need to ensure that the dataset looked at is of sufficient size.

As we are dealing with an unknown data set, one cannot categorically state there is any statistical relevance made.
WRONG!

You are dealing with the population not a sample or dataset. It is possible to know about every cruising cat so the statistical relevance is known.

We can say exactly what percentage of the production cats (or monohulls) successfully complete their voyage. There is no need for interpretation/confidence intervals/standard deviations...etc

We are measuring the entire event
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Old 07-01-2015, 12:29   #609
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
A delivery skipper prefers heavier, higher-end Swans and Outbounds over production boats? This is a surprise to you...a delivery skipper?

Are you now equating upwind deliveries to "bluewater cruising"? I've done a couple of those multi-day upwind deliveries - in a Pacific Seacraft 37 and a Pearson 365. Not nearly as fun as bluewater cruising in ANY boat.
If you ever do decide to cross an ocean you will find that you get in lots of upwind sailing, even in the so called trade wind belt. On our last crossing we had 4 days of upwind sailing, first day was 25-30 knots, not much fun the other 3 days were on the backside of a low that slipped down further than forecast but the winds were decent in the 10-15 knot range. When you start venturing out further afield you can pretty much count on some upwind sailing, for example the first week or so leaving Hawaii sailing back to Vancouver or Seattle will be all up wind and if you are sailing in compressed trades you will be getting 25-30 apparent. If you do have a flat beamy boat (which you don't by the way) you might have to check your teeth filings when you get home.
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Old 07-01-2015, 12:59   #610
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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A delivery skipper prefers heavier, higher-end Swans and Outbounds over production boats? This is a surprise to you...a delivery skipper?
Doesn't surprise me at all... He's obviously formed an opinion based upon his experience with what works in The Real World...

And yet, his own boat - just like mine - was originally a Plain Jane production boat from Allied, getting very close to 50 years old... Go figure... :-)

Just because Andy is a delivery skipper, doesn't mean he's always in a hurry... Sounds like he's well acquainted with the Cardinal Rule of the delivery trade:

"Don't break the boat..." And, additionally, because deliveries are most often made short-handed, "Don't beat up the crew, leading to fatigue/poor morale, which can lead to mistakes, and so on..."

Couldn't have said it better myself:
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There’s a big difference between sailing fast and sailing well. Arcturus just feels right under sail – she moves easy in light air and sails smoothly and sweetly. It’s difficult to describe, but you just know when you’re sailing a sweet boat, and that’s most important.


Offshore, Arcturus was slow upwind, but only cause her tacking angles are wide. She still has that sweet feel to her, which makes sailing fun. To me, going offshore is about being out there and enjoying the wilderness, much more than getting there quickly. So I don’t mind having a slow boat, so long as it’s fun to sail.
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Are you now equating upwind deliveries to "bluewater cruising"? I've done a couple of those multi-day upwind deliveries - in a Pacific Seacraft 37 and a Pearson 365. Not nearly as fun as bluewater cruising in ANY boat.
Andy was posed the question regarding sailing primarily in the Atlantic... As robert sailor has already noted, if you think any serious amount of "Bluewater Cruising" in the North Atlantic Ocean - featuring routes such as those sailed in the fall to the Islands in the Caribbean 1500 or via Bermuda, or the crossing of the Bay of Biscay, or the Thorny Path, or the return to the East coast after a summer in Atlantic Canada - is not likely to involve some sporty sailing hard on the wind, well... you're dreaming...

:-))
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Old 07-01-2015, 14:20   #611
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Polux - nice pond photos but where are the pics of these boat in Force 10 conditions?
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Old 07-01-2015, 14:33   #612
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
If you ever do decide to cross an ocean you will find that you get in lots of upwind sailing, even in the so called trade wind belt. On our last crossing we had 4 days of upwind sailing, first day was 25-30 knots, not much fun the other 3 days were on the backside of a low that slipped down further than forecast but the winds were decent in the 10-15 knot range. When you start venturing out further afield you can pretty much count on some upwind sailing, for example the first week or so leaving Hawaii sailing back to Vancouver or Seattle will be all up wind and if you are sailing in compressed trades you will be getting 25-30 apparent. If you do have a flat beamy boat (which you don't by the way) you might have to check your teeth filings when you get home.
Let me be more clear. There's absolutely a difference between "delivering" and "cruising" upwind...especially if you're paying by the day.

It's not the upwind itself that's so bad...it's how you do it.
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Old 07-01-2015, 14:45   #613
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Polux - nice pond photos but where are the pics of these boat in Force 10 conditions?
Well, when I was on F10 conditions I had not time for photos. I guess that most of the sailors that have the bad luck of being caught on those conditions are not thinking about taking photos. Did you took photos when you sailed on F10? Please post them, I bey we all are going to like to see them.
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Old 07-01-2015, 14:47   #614
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Let me be more clear. There's absolutely a difference between "delivering" and "cruising" upwind...especially if you're paying by the day.

It's not the upwind itself that's so bad...it's how you do it.
OK that went by me because I don't see any difference between cruising up wind and delivering up wind
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Old 07-01-2015, 14:53   #615
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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OK that went by me because I don't see any difference between cruising up wind and delivering up wind
Jon alluded to it above. Yes, the cardinal rule is "don't break the boat". But the reason that is the cardinal rule is that most deliveries are on a far tighter schedule than a cruiser will have. Therefore, the boat is typically pushed harder than a cruiser will push it. When you're cruising on your own schedule, you can take it much easier.

You'll even remember this being a consideration on Rebel Heart in the early part of their voyage. During the day, Eric would fall off to mellow things out for his family. Then at night when they were asleep, he'd tighten it up to get more VMG.

That's what I mean.
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