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Old 05-01-2015, 17:46   #496
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So just replace them after 5 years. Boom. Done.

That's being a prudent sailboat owner.



Used Moodys too.

(PS - This is actually some very good information that has come out of this thread.)
So, from what I've gathered so far, when I buy my slightly used mass production boat

1. I will check and possibly put backing plates on cleats that may be subject to extra strain

2. Since the boat will probably be about 5 yrs old, as a preventative measure I'll look at replacing the through hulls (to bronze or other durable seacock).

Does anyone have an approximate cost of replacing the through hulls? Obviously depends on the boat- but a ball park figure?
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Old 05-01-2015, 17:47   #497
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Now that my friend is funny, why would those crazy British be concerned about rudders and keels falling off sailboats? Kinda makes the brass seacock debate seem a bit on the wimpy side!
Everybody is concerned with that and with seacoks too if that was just such a big problem as they wanted to make of it. Around here we call that sensationalism, a good way to sell magazines to the ones that are mostly chair sailors.
Au fil des milles - Bienvenue !

By the way, an old First 30 and a young French couple (Claire and Gaėtan) circumnavigating for 3 years on Ty Punch:

Ty Punch ... on Vimeo



Saint Malo sailors This year I sailed with a couple of Saint Malo sailors, two doctors just a bit younger then me sailing also on a First 30. Dam good sailors...I was always worried with the kind of weather the took with their boat. It seemed they were able to sail with the same kind of weather I sailed, just slower.

They did not like the slower part of it (I sailed later from the anchorage and waited for them for hours on the next one). Next year it will be fun: they are looking for a used Comet 41s to trade for the First
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:05   #498
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Everybody is concerned with that and with seacoks too if that was just such a big problem as they want to make of it. Around here we cal that sensationalism, a good way to sell magazines to the ones that are mostly chair sailors.
Au fil des milles - Bienvenue !

By the way, an old First 30 and a young French couple (Claire and Gaėtan) circumnavigating for 3 years on Ty Punch:

Ty Punch ... on Vimeo
Truth is Polux, all offshore sailors or want to be's are quite interested in rudders or keels falling off, it can get a bit lonely out there and that's the last thing you want occupying your mind. The brass seacock thing and fender washers is of interest because it tells us what the builders deem important. The crazy thing is most buyers of new sailboats don't have a clue how the boat is really built and many wouldn't even know what questions to ask. I'll bet if you did a poll and asked a group of sailors that had just purchased new boats how many of them knew that they would need to replace all the skin fittings and valves within a 5+ year period very few if any would know. I say that because if they did know almost everyone of them would ask the builder to install bronze instead of brass. And no I don't know how many actually have but all I do is hang around sailors and it has never come up and we sailors are quite gossipy about that sort of stuff.
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:06   #499
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by fozrunner View Post
So, from what I've gathered so far, when I buy my slightly used mass production boat

1. I will check and possibly put backing plates on cleats that may be subject to extra strain

2. Since the boat will probably be about 5 yrs old, as a preventative measure I'll look at replacing the through hulls (to bronze or other durable seacock).

Does anyone have an approximate cost of replacing the through hulls? Obviously depends on the boat- but a ball park figure?
Hey foz...

1. Here's where you could start with the backing plates (assuming you want stainless):

Backing Plate

-or-

http://www.grainger.com/category/raw...ts_optout=true

2. Here's where you can start on the through hull fittings (assuming you want bronze):

Groco Bronze Thru-Hull Fittings

(You can find seacocks in the same place - or elsewhere. This is just a start to see some pricing.)

From there it's labor. And on that note - remember that if you have a yard guy help you, you're not supposed to pay him anything until he's done, you're supposed to watch him do the whole job, and you're supposed to inspect all his work. Then you can pay him his astronomical hourly fee. Or you can do it all yourself and probably do a better job even if you suck at such stuff. Did you see my wiring? Heh-heh.

Enjoy!

As you can see...it's not really a lot of money. You're still way ahead.
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:09   #500
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by fozrunner View Post
So, from what I've gathered so far, when I buy my slightly used mass production boat

1. I will check and possibly put backing plates on cleats that may be subject to extra strain

2. Since the boat will probably be about 5 yrs old, as a preventative measure I'll look at replacing the through hulls (to bronze or other durable seacock).

Does anyone have an approximate cost of replacing the through hulls? Obviously depends on the boat- but a ball park figure?
With a 5 year old boat probably you will not need anything, just checking everything including the rudder. Probably you will have 3 or 4 years with almost no maintenance with the boat. Best age to buy an used boat in my opinion. With some luck and if you look at the right places you can get if for half the price of a new one.
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:15   #501
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Hey foz...

1. Here's where you could start with the backing plates (assuming you want stainless):

Backing Plate

-or-

Stainless Plate Stainless Steel Blanks, Flats, Bars, Plates, and Sheet Stock - Stainless Steel - Grainger Industrial Supply

2. Here's where you can start on the through hull fittings (assuming you want bronze):

Groco Bronze Thru-Hull Fittings

From there it's labor. And on that note - remember that if you have a yard guy help you, you're not supposed to pay him anything until he's done, you're supposed to watch him do the whole job, and you're supposed to inspect all his work. Then you can pay him his astronomical hourly fee. Or you can do it all yourself and probably do a better job even if you suck at such stuff. Did you see my wiring? Heh-heh.

Enjoy!

As you can see...it's not really a lot of money. You're still way ahead.

And the Queen of the Obvious lessons: Dont be a ingenuous...
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:16   #502
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by fozrunner View Post
So, from what I've gathered so far, when I buy my slightly used mass production boat

1. I will check and possibly put backing plates on cleats that may be subject to extra strain

2. Since the boat will probably be about 5 yrs old, as a preventative measure I'll look at replacing the through hulls (to bronze or other durable seacock).

Does anyone have an approximate cost of replacing the through hulls? Obviously depends on the boat- but a ball park figure?
I thought I had read awhile back that Hunters for one used bronze thru-hulls & seacocks. Brass was installed mainly on the European boats. Yes? No?

I'd say that upgrading essential systems like you described will be inevitable on any new (to you) boat that you buy, but being aware ahead of time of potential well-known issues that have mainly surfaced on mass production boats can only help. They are standardized and there are a lot of them out there, so issues are easier to track.

Sorry, can't help on cost of replacing through-hulls. Probably varies a lot.
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:18   #503
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
With a 5 year old boat probably you will not need anything, just checking everything including the rudder. Probably you will have 3 or 4 years with almost no maintenance with the boat. Best age to buy an used boat in my opinion. With some luck and if you look at the right places you can get if for half the price of a new one.

Wow Wow, and now a wanabe surveyor, good job Pol.!!!
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:19   #504
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
... I'll bet if you did a poll and asked a group of sailors that had just purchased new boats how many of them knew that they would need to replace all the skin fittings and valves within a 5+ year period very few if any would know. I say that because if they did know almost everyone of them would ask the builder to install bronze instead of brass. And no I don't know how many actually have but all I do is hang around sailors and it has never come up and we sailors are quite gossipy about that sort of stuff.
Yes, that is what I call "sensationalism". The truth is that they don't have to change their through the hulls after 5 years. I never new anybody that had to do that and when I talked about that to the Bavaria maintenance guys, with a boat then with about that age, they laugh at my face and said that I was crazy.

As I told you 8 years after that (13 years in all) my old Bavaria still has the same seacocks and they are just fine.

You know, some boat builders give one year warranty on the hull, others give three and very rarely they give 5....that does not mean that the hull would collapse after 5 years, in fact it will last much more than that, the same with the 5 years warranty on the seacocks.
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:26   #505
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Some Bavarias owners concerned about the skin fittings Paulo.


I did contact Bavaria and you'll be surprised with their reply. They said the Bavaria seacocks are Brass and should last at least 15 years. I checked my seacocks on mine which are almost 5 years old and 'seem' fine after lightly sanding it which brought back the light yellowish color back from the brownish / copper color which should indicate that the material is still intact / good condition.

15 years WTF!!!


Another one:

Sorry, but Bavaria's reply is pure BS!
YM pro's are right!
Only Bronze/Merlone seacocks are real marine grade! All other Brass/SS/Copper etc are good only for bathrooms.
To save a dime they were ready to put us all in danger GRRRRR!
The cost of good marine grade seacocks is almost nothing in the total cost of any boat.
Let them put their money where their mouth is! Will they pay for any of our sunked boats if they are wrong? I wonder!
We as Bav owners should let them know what we think in this case and ask for a recall just like in the car/bike industry

Any recommendations? Bronze or plastic like Forespar Merlone

This one looks upset...


Best reply from a Bavaria owner so far:

GOOD LUCK, with that!


Quote of the day:

<li class="profile">
Re: Seacocks

« Reply #9 on: January 05 2012, 17:30 »



The skin fittings are brass. Under EU regulations they are only required to last five years. It does seem penny-pinching not to fit marine grade kit but then Bavarias are budget boats. You get what you pay for. Will Bavaria upgrade to marine quality? Probably not, unless there's sufficient bad press such that they consider the cost of changing to marine grade fittings is less than they are losing in sales because of their continued use of brass.

As one well known proverb states: "Where there's muck, there's brass."



They dont laugh when you mention the brass isue, they laugh at you Mr.
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:28   #506
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Wow Wow, and now a wanabe surveyor, good job Pol.!!!
Well, between me and friends I have some experience with that. We just happen to buy boats with that age, not charter boats, but owner boats that did not sail much. Some of those boats with 5 years have 400 hours on the engine and practically new sails. At least here, with lots of boats of that age available it is not hard to find one ready to go and almost in new condition.

Of course, after choosing the boat I have it surveyed by a top class surveyor but normally it just confirms what I saw. I gave some help to friends in what regards choosing boats but always insist on having them surveyed professionally after a first choice.
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:29   #507
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Yes, that is what I call "sensationalism". The truth is that they don't have to change their through the hulls after 5 years. I never new anybody that had to do that and when I talked about that to the Bavaria maintenance guys, with a boat then with about that age, they laugh at my face and said that I was crazy.

As I told you 8 years after that (13 years in all) my old Bavaria still has the same seacocks and they are just fine.

You know, some boat builders give one year warranty on the hull, others give three and very rarely they give 5....that does not mean that the hull would collapse after 5 years, in fact it will last much more than that, the same with the 5 years warranty on the seacocks.
I guess it all depends because other posters were giving evidence of brass fittings looking good on the outside but breaking off in the surveyors hands plus Goboatingnow has suggested that the ISO that is currently being used will be modified and that will pretty much be the end of brass skin fittings etc. because they will not meet the standard. Be that as it may I did add a plus behind the 5 just for you and you can use any number here you wish.
Personally brass and seawater have never been a match in my mind and you have to give it to the Yanks because they never reached down that low when building new boats.
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:43   #508
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Some Bavarias owners concerned about the skin fittings Paulo.

I did contact Bavaria and you'll be surprised with their reply. They said the Bavaria seacocks are Brass and should last at least 15 years. I checked my seacocks on mine which are almost 5 years old and 'seem' fine after lightly sanding it which brought back the light yellowish color back from the brownish / copper color which should indicate that the material is still intact / good condition.
...
You have just confirmed what I said. When I talked to the maintenance Bavaria guys to know if a 5 year old Bavaria needed new seacocks they laugh at the idea and as you say with reason, since they would last 3 times more. That explains also why my old Bavaria, now with 13 years has yet the same seacocks.

It seems that you and me have just a different notion about what is old. For me a 15 year old boat is an old boat while for you an old boat is a 30 or 40 year old boat. You seem to think that all want to keep their boats for a long time but that is not that type of mentality you see here neither the one I have.

Yes, if the materials are of better quality the boat can be in better state after 15 or 30 years, but even with a 15 years old boat I would not get a better sailboat only If I couldn't: the boat will be outdated in what regards sail performance and interior set up and will cost me a lot to maintain anyway.

Regarding having a boat with 30 years...unless it was a true classic or an old traditional boat, I cannot even imagine that. No pleasure in owning an old boat, at least for me. The same I would have owning an old car with a lousy performance.
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:44   #509
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Another Bavaria owner concerned .....On my 7 year old Bavaria 30)
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Old 05-01-2015, 18:45   #510
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
With a 5 year old boat probably you will not need anything, just checking everything including the rudder. Probably you will have 3 or 4 years with almost no maintenance with the boat. Best age to buy an used boat in my opinion. With some luck and if you look at the right places you can get if for half the price of a new one.
Not need anything?? 3-4 additional years with almost no maintenance on a boat that's already 5 years old?? We are talking about a BOAT here, no?

And so are you saying that mass-produced boats can depreciate to half their original value in 5 years? If so, then a guy like Smack who's dreaming of buying a new one for $300K-plus and then trading in (before stuff starts to break) will have to come up with another $150K every 5 years? That's $30K/year just in depreciation. Probably better off paying on a loan and, yes, buying used vs. new.
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