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Old 05-01-2015, 14:29   #451
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Thanks Weavis. That's exactly the way I understood it. You can "still have a foot out".
Sigh.

NO YOU CANT.

You have to agree to the centralised tenets. The rest does not count, its not a foot out, its not a requirement. Your IN or OUT of full membership of the EU based on the REQUIRED tenets. Exclusions have never been a "requirement."

Enough from me. Im starting to lose the will to live, It started about a thousand words ago. Some things just emphasise cognitive Dissonance as a fact of life.
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Old 05-01-2015, 14:30   #452
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So, Polux was essentially right.
all member states have exceptions they negotiated either during accession or by unanimity agreement with all other members, what a member state can't do is simply decide to ignore or not implement rules and laws that lie outside any derogation

sailing licenses have nothing to do with it

Many EU countries don't need licenses for sailing boats, some do to a degree or more.

sheesh
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Old 05-01-2015, 14:35   #453
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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No it does not, unless it arranged that derogation when it joined the EU, or it was subsequently received all EU agreement to implement an agreed derogation subsequently. it cannot arbitrarily agree derogations

You are mixing up your understanding of directives and regulations

and finally national law is subservient to EU law.
I did not state otherwise. All countries have the right to discuss membership requirements upon joining. That is the binding agreement unless subsequently 'agreed' in Brussels to change something. Rare.

I stated: "Britain is no different and totally COMPLIANT with centralised EU policy and that is why a referendum is being held. The nation is losing its United Kingdom individuality because of that compliance and there is a movement within the country to exit because of it."

we are not in disagreement.
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Old 05-01-2015, 14:40   #454
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It's not easy following this thread, especially when I have to come back to it between my non cruising lifestyle activities.

My question is for clarification:
So a production boat with fender washers holding deck cleats is or may be a blue water boat? Is the definition or general accepted belief by most about a blue water boat vague?

I appreciate the debate and hope to reach some conclusion soon.
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Old 05-01-2015, 14:45   #455
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Greatketch33 View Post
It's not easy following this thread, especially when I have to come back to it between my non cruising lifestyle activities.

My question is for clarification:
So a production boat with fender washers holding deck cleats is or may be a blue water boat? Is the definition or general accepted belief by most about a blue water boat vague?

I appreciate the debate and hope to reach some conclusion soon.
I'm a little confused as well, but I think the conclusion on that one is that if you plan to anchor in blue water, fender washers only are fine. However, if you're going to tow a drogue or do some "coastal anchoring" - you need backing plates.
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Old 05-01-2015, 14:45   #456
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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So, as one who wants to be prudent, should I believe you, or Keno, or the CE rating?

Can someone try to explain to this guy the difference between Naval Bronze, Brass and DZR brass? He obviously won't listen to me.

What you see in the picture is definitely... positively DZR brass... the same crap that's specified in the Bluewater B.S. certification that you and others hold in such high regard. DZR brass... the same crap that self destructs every 5 years (or so) under normal use unless you replace them... usually, at the most inopportune moment.
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Old 05-01-2015, 14:50   #457
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

I dont know if any here have been involved in CE certification of boats, but I have

Firstly boatman, please don't keep posting nonsense about CE markings, I know you obviously don't like the idea, but you are posting misleading information

lets summarise

(a) a CE mark as it applies to boats means the Boat meets the requirements of the RCD ( The recreational craft directive) .The RCD has the force of LAW in all EU states

(b) A manufacturer before placing a craft on the EU market , must ensure that the boats meets the RCD and bears the correct builders plate displaying the CE mark amongst other things

(c) The manufacturer voluntary decides what boat is elected to be in what category ( or a series production ) , it may decide to go for A, B, C or D as it sees fit.

(d) for A and B there is a mandatory assessment provided by a " notified body" , i.e. a competent assessor assigned by the EU.

(e) A boat should be put through multiple categories, if the manufacturer decided, The category is not determined by the assessor, the boat either meets the criterion or not.

(f) PURELY based on category , you cannot decide is the boat is the right one for you, You could get a CAT D boat that is capable of going round the world, merely because the manufacturer wanted to certify under the simpler CAT d rules. ( Its very unusual though )

(g) Post construction certification , which boatman claimed anyone could get for 12000, is ONLY available to people putting a boat on the EU market ( or importing it) where the original manufacturer is unable or unwilling to certify the boat. 2nd hand personal imports from the USA are obvious candidates and thats process was mainly adopted for that reason.
Post certification is only for the particular boat and does not apply to series production

Note that post certification has NOTHING to do with pre 1996 boats , unless they are being imported from outside the EU. Pre this date NO CE marking is required for boats in the EU on that date.

for a manufacturer to comply with CAT A or B means they will have a documented manufacturing system and a boat technical file and they will demonstrate compliance with the RCD requirements for the category, The ISO specs MAY be used to demonstrate such compliance and increasing are.


A CAT A boat is NOT an assurance that the boat can go anywhere, I mean you can meet significantly greater conditions then laid out in the RCD on the oceans.

Nor does it mean that necessarily that a CAT B boat is unsuitable.

what it does mean is that you can be assured that two boats meeting the CAT A RCD, will at least have compliance with the basic scantlings, stability and other factors of the RCD.

Most modern cruisers are significantly in advance of the RCD especially over 30 feet.

SO Cat A is really a minimum after that its down to you the buyer to decide.

Its not a indication that you are getting a " great " boat, its more a protection that you are not getting a " crappy" one, where the manufacturer has misrepresented the specs.

PS if you want DNZ or bronze seacocks in a EU boat just ask the manufacturer to fit them, Ive had Beneteau do it no issue, Ive had Beneteau change hatches and other fitments as well.

Sheesh I hope this RCD /CE stuff is at an end
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Old 05-01-2015, 14:50   #458
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Can someone try to explain to this guy the difference between Naval Bronze, Brass and DZR brass? He obviously won't listen to me.

What you see in the picture is definitely... positively DZR brass... the same crap that's specified in the Bluewater B.S. certification that you and others hold in such high regard. DZR brass... the same crap that self destructs every 5 years (or so) under normal use unless you replace them... usually, at the most inopportune moment.
So just replace them after 5 years. Boom. Done.

That's being a prudent sailboat owner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The prudent sailboat owner will change all of them if the boat is older than 5 years, it's not enough just to have them inspected.

Everyone, no matter the make or model of the boat should be 100% certain their fittings are naval bronze. Forget about arguing about the regulations... just do it.
Used Moodys too.

(PS - This is actually some very good information that has come out of this thread.)
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Old 05-01-2015, 14:54   #459
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

LoL, HE HE
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Old 05-01-2015, 14:56   #460
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

I wonder if a backing plate make a Mackgregor 25 blue wter thingy,,, seriously those questions!!!
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Old 05-01-2015, 14:57   #461
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

wed had this seacock issue before. in practice the issue affects boats built to ABYC rules more then anything , because the emphasis on AC safety and the lack of shore side safety equipment, means that the underwater fitments are more exposed to impressed current corrosion

On a dry GRP boat, with no AC earth to DC negative, and no centrally bonded under water figments as typical in a RCD compliant boat, impressed corrosion is far less a threat.

Thats not to argue the superiority of bronze over brass ( or other intermediate variants) , but it explains why 10-15 year old boats in the med, are not sitting on the bottom with failed seacocks.

The RCD does not mandate brass. and the next revision will tighten the spec so that brass cannot comply , I have had several noticed bodies tell me that they don't believe that yellow brass is suitable under the existing rules and it does exhibit some degradation in under 5 years. They will pass DNZ fitments

dave
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Old 05-01-2015, 14:58   #462
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I wonder if a backing plate make a Mackgregor 25 blue wter thingy,,, seriously those questions!!!
Better than a bathtub. But I still wouldn't advise it.
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Old 05-01-2015, 14:59   #463
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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HOld hard there.

The UK is part of the EEC. I pay EEC contributions and abide by EEC laws in Britain.

Factual errors like this (and several others) have deleted you from my list of 'go to' guys.
....
Sorry, Either you have the facts to back up your statements, which in this instance, and in several others, is totally incorrect and cannot be rectified with a half baked excuse as above....

...
It seems you did not read what I wrote:

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.... You should know UK is not properly EC, I mean they are in but they have a foot in other out and may probably go out as a result of a referendum they plan to make. Contrary to other EC countries they also don't need boat licences to sail so that goes with liberty package that some other European countries see as irresponsibility.
And It seems that the irony was completely lost on you. You have to explain to me how UK can go out of EC if it is not in

I said UK is in EC but has a foot in another out: they don't have the Euro, they don't have schengen, they are continually against any global harmonization of laws, they are against a federal state, against a EC Army they are always winning and complaining about everything that regards European Parliament and European laws and finally they are going to do a referendum about staying on not the EC .Resuming, they are in EC but are against it
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Old 05-01-2015, 15:01   #464
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Polux! You HAD to start this again?!?!?!? It was just winding down!!!!

You bastard!!! Heh-heh.

You guys take it to "Political Anarchy". This thread is for awesome production boats.
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Old 05-01-2015, 15:03   #465
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

The original question was what production boats can be used in serious blue water?

The answer given by dozens with hundreds of examples is:

ALMOST ANY PRODUCTION BOAT HAS DONE A CIRCUMNAVIGATION

The rest of this discussion is:
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