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Old 02-01-2015, 18:33   #31
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
But, if you're considering a boat for off-shore cruising, and have an even remotely open mind, hopefully you'll find some good facts in this thread as it goes to help you make a rational decision. Because when weighing cost and safety - you can easily go down an expensive, or even dangerous path, if you only hear one side of the story.
Dang Smack! You had me worried for a bit....thought you'd made a New Year's Resolution to stay off the forums. Happy New Year Dude.

For those with big dreams and empty pockets - find a clean, early 80's Cherubini Hunter. Nice, solid boats that won't kill you. That's about all that I can offer from experience.

Oh, and from the rescues I've seen over the years, most boats are still afloat when the CG lifts the crew to the chopper...

Ralph
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Old 02-01-2015, 18:36   #32
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Dang Smack! You had me worried for a bit....thought you'd made a New Year's Resolution to stay off the forums. Happy New Year Dude.

For those with big dreams and empty pockets - find a clean, early 80's Cherubini Hunter. Nice, solid boats that won't kill you. That's about all that I can offer from experience.

Oh, and from the rescues I've seen over the years, most boats are still afloat when the CG lifts the crew to the chopper...

Ralph
I was skiing with my boys. We had a great time. But I'm back and ready to rock.

Happy New Year to you as well, dude. See you soon!
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Old 02-01-2015, 18:39   #33
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Smack I think this thread has merit but let me give an word of advise if you don't want the old boat lovers to make a circus out of it: Let's stay with facts.

What I suggest is that you post about the many guys that are doing long range cruising or living aboard on production boats. Off course you will only be able to reach a minority, the ones that run a blog but to those you can communicate with them, ask them questions and eventually ask them to post here.

There is a problem however, Americans and Englishmen are among the most conservative cruisers and generally old boat lovers, so you will have a problem because many of the ones that cruise and live on more modern boats don't have English as first language. How is your French?

Most of the French understand English but are not able to write so ask them to write in French, send it to me and I will translate. See my email on my blog.

So to start an already "old" Pogo 8.50, the first cruising Pogo, a 2001 sailboat, Apache:
Inventaire APACHE pour notre tour de l€™atlantique - Le blog de voilier apache
That made the Atlantic circuit:
Position d'Apache sur l'Atlantique - Le blog de voilier apache
Fred et Cam bord d'APACHE - Tour de l'atlantique en POGO 8.50

You will love this part:

Looking for the ideal Boat

Projet "Tour de l'Atlantique - Le blog de voilier apache

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Old 02-01-2015, 18:40   #34
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I was skiing with my boys. We had a great time. But I'm back and ready to rock.

Happy New Year to you as well, dude. See you soon!
Good on you. ROCK ON!

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Old 02-01-2015, 18:43   #35
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger View Post
The real "Dock Queens" are the people who have bought into the "Blue Water, traditional full keel myth". Slaving away fixing ****...
Have seen them all over the U.S. and Mexico.
The dry storage yards in particular are full of these dreamers...
Buy a more modern boat and take off!
Money and time ahead.

Now that you let the cat out of the bag better Get one soon price is going up on these
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Old 02-01-2015, 18:53   #36
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger View Post
The real "Dock Queens" are the people who have bought into the "Blue Water, traditional full keel myth". Slaving away fixing ****...
Have seen them all over the U.S. and Mexico.
The dry storage yards in particular are full of these dreamers...
Buy a more modern boat and take off!
Money and time ahead.

Now that you let the cat out of the bag better Get one soon price is going up on these
I'm happily cruising the Sea of Cortez on my 2008 Hunter 38 (yes, I said it). Sailed her down from Portland OR. Would take her anywhere. Also own a "Blue Water Style" 1973 Cheoy Lee Offshore 27. What a piece of **** money pit...
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Old 02-01-2015, 18:59   #37
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger View Post
The real "Dock Queens" are the people who have bought into the "Blue Water, traditional full keel myth". Slaving away fixing ****...
Have seen them all over the U.S. and Mexico.
The dry storage yards in particular are full of these dreamers...
Buy a more modern boat and take off!
Money and time ahead.
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Old 02-01-2015, 19:11   #38
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger View Post
The real "Dock Queens" are the people who have bought into the "Blue Water, traditional full keel myth". Slaving away fixing ****...
Have seen them all over the U.S. and Mexico.
The dry storage yards in particular are full of these dreamers...
WHAT???

I cruise with a lot of those folks you describe. They cruise for six or so months then return to their other life and then return to cruising. Many of them have tens of thousands of miles and ocean crossings to their credit yet their boats spend a significant part of the time in the yard.

The Columbia 36 is a perfect example - cruising since 1999 from Seattle to Turkey via South America. They put their old full keel boat on the hard for several months at a time to return home to see the grandkids. They are now in their seventh year cruising the Med and wintered over in Spain, Italy, Turkey, Sicily. They are the prototypical cruising couple but do spend a lot of time working on their old boat.

Or - my Norseman 447 friends - In the last 20-years they have done Seattle to Florida Seattle to Hawaii and three trips Seattle to Mexico yet their big old cruiser sits in the yard for months at a time. Currently it is in San Carlos Marina Seca on their third trip to the Sea of Cortez.

Two other cruising couples I knew in Mexico (a old catamaran and even older full keel crab crusher) put their boats on the hard in La Paz or San Carlos for five months a year in order to return to the States to make money.

Maybe you mis-understood something?
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Old 02-01-2015, 19:14   #39
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I'm happily cruising the Sea of Cortez on my 2008 Hunter 38 (yes, I said it). Sailed her down from Portland OR. Would take her anywhere.
That's why I started this thread. The fact that you feel you have to put that in parentheses is kind of ridiculous. A 2008 Hunter 38 is a great cruising boat for crying out loud.
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Old 02-01-2015, 19:33   #40
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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That's why I started this thread. The fact that you feel you have to put that in parentheses is kind of ridiculous. A 2008 Hunter 38 is a great cruising boat for crying out loud.
Didn't feel I "had to" Smack. Just a bit of a lark...
And, yes she is.
Always shake my head when I read about the deficiencies of production boats vs "Blue Water" boats.
Handholds? Gobs, thanks.
Stowage? More than I know what to do with. 50% is empty.
Shallow bilges? Have to lay on my stomach to reach the bottom.
Inferior equipment? Everything that you would find on a much more expensive production boat and a far cry better than you will get on an older "Blue Water" boat.
Solid SS rudder shaft. Lead keel.
Etc. etc...
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Old 02-01-2015, 19:46   #41
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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WHAT???

I cruise with a lot of those folks you describe. They cruise for six or so months then return to their other life and then return to cruising. Many of them have tens of thousands of miles and ocean crossings to their credit yet their boats spend a significant part of the time in the yard.

The Columbia 36 is a perfect example - cruising since 1999 from Seattle to Turkey via South America. They put their old full keel boat on the hard for several months at a time to return home to see the grandkids. They are now in their seventh year cruising the Med and wintered over in Spain, Italy, Turkey, Sicily. They are the prototypical cruising couple but do spend a lot of time working on their old boat.

Or - my Norseman 447 friends - In the last 20-years they have done Seattle to Florida Seattle to Hawaii and three trips Seattle to Mexico yet their big old cruiser sits in the yard for months at a time. Currently it is in San Carlos Marina Seca on their third trip to the Sea of Cortez.

Two other cruising couples I knew in Mexico (a old catamaran and even older full keel crab crusher) put their boats on the hard in La Paz or San Carlos for five months a year in order to return to the States to make money.

Maybe you mis-understood something?
No, no misunderstanding. And what you say is true, as far as it goes. but I'll stand by my statement: "The dry storage yards in particular are full of these dreamers..."
There are ACRES of these boats in Marina San Carlos alone. Was just there.
Many, many of them have been left there to die. Ditto Berkovich. Ditto hundreds of other yards in hundreds of other locations. If you've been around, you can't argue that fact with a straight face. Can you???
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Old 02-01-2015, 19:57   #42
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

I'm not sure that older/lower value boats are left to rot in boat yards says much about anything really. A newer more value boat would be easier to sell when the dream collapses rather than more trouble than it's worth to just abandon.

Dreams collapse every season and it happens to folks on new boat and old boats...the newer boats are easier to walk away from and sell than the older boats. So the reason you see more old junkers in yards is well....because they are OLD Junkers.

The Fool is the guy that sees one of these half dead junkers and convinces his wife and self that he can have it ready to go for only $10K and a month of hard work on the hard in San Carlos...ha ha ha ....now that's another story and that IS where the old full keel dreamer myth dies a slow painful death. But in 25-30yrs the same dreamer death will happen to the current new production boats once they are left half dead and abandoned in a boat yard in Mexico. It's not the boat make or type....its age and neglect and unrealistic or ignorance of what it will take to bring back an "old girl" that gets ya...

Tangent....
My son wants the two of us to make a trip back to Mexico after he graduates from High School and he wants to do it on a MacGregor 26x, which would be the perfect Sea of Cortez boat for a young guy for a season or two. There is a big part of me that wants to buy one and sail down Baja, over to the Mexican mainland, and then all over the Sea of Cortez just to drive the "Blue Water boat Guys" crazy....I know I know...I shouldn't think like that, but these "gotta have a true Blue water boat" guys are so full of **** I would just love to motor past them at 13kts on the way into the anchorage with the MacGregor and take the best spot in the anchorage and be out spear fishing before they even got their hook set. Then I would fire up one of my 30GPH water makers and rinse down the boat at anchor while they are making 8GPH.....forgive me for the evil thoughts, but you know it would be FUN.
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Old 02-01-2015, 20:05   #43
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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I'm not sure that older/lower value boats are left to rot in boat yards says much about anything really. A newer more value boat would be easier to sell when the dream collapses rather than more trouble than it's worth to just abandon.

Dreams collapse every season and it happens to folks on new boat and old boats...the newer boats are easier to walk away from and sell than the older boats. So the reason you see more old junkers in yards is well....because they are OLD Junkers.

The Fool is the guy that sees one of these half dead junkers and convinces his wife and self that he can have it ready to go for only $10K and a month of hard work on the hard in San Carlos...ha ha ha ....now that's another story and that IS where the old full keel dreamer myth dies a slow painful death. But in 25-30yrs the same dreamer death will happen to the current new production boats once they are left half dead and abandoned in a boat yard in Mexico. It's not the boat make or type....its age and neglect and unrealistic or ignorance of what it will take to bring back an "old girl" that gets ya...
No argument there.
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Old 02-01-2015, 22:02   #44
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

The following post is from another thread titled: Re: ANOTHER Hunter Rudder! I noticed you (Smackdaddy) didn't comment on this new rudder/problem/ failure on the thread, so just in case you didn't see it..... looks like this fellow had similar issues with his rudder as I had with my 450 keel (similar vintage), where he liked the boat, but didn't find it to be fit for blue water use after discovering the issue.... here it is:



Posted by Skipperthb earlier today:


"ANOTHER hunter Rudder!
First let me start by saying I am not trying to condemn, point fingers or stir the stink pot with this post. I am very happy with my Hunter 426, we spent a good deal of time and effort comparing manufactures and models before purchasing our Hunter, what I do have is a problem that I am looking for advice/feedback/comments.

Some history,
Last spring while putting a fresh coat of VC-17 on the bottom we noticed the rudder was weeping water around the rudder stock to rudder connection, I had dismissed it as it had rained a couple of days earlier so we launched and sailed from Saint Joe to Michigan City never giving it a second thought, then in July while crewing on another sailboat for the
Chicago to Mackinaw race the weeping rudder came up in conversation, the skipper and first mate concluded the rudder maybe full of water and advised I go easy on my hunter for the rest of the season or risk possibly loosing the rudder. The thought of having to steer the boat with buckets or a drogue didn’t seem like a fun time (although every crew should practice the technique).

Preparing for the winter haul out I made arrangements with the staff at Anchors Way marina to help with the removal of the rudder. With the boat hanging in the travel lift I gave the rudder some sounding knocks with my knuckles as did Adam the yard foreman, Yep it’s full of water. The team at the marina knowing that with this size of rudder full of water it would be heavy so they used a fork lift to lower the rudder out of the boat, it took 2 men to keep it stable until it could be laid on its side, once on its side the water started trickling out, Adam estimated its weight at about 300+ lbs. We loaded it in my truck as this would be my
winter project.

After getting the rudder home, I laid it on its side and proceeded to investigate the rudder stock connection. What I thought was fairing compound between the rudder and rudder stock was more like caulking (soft and pliable), with a screw driver and putty knife I was able to
remove most of it and the water started running out. I left it like that for several days with towels soaking up the water, I bet about 2 to 3 gallons came out. Then I installed an eye bolt in the ceiling so I could stand the rudder up right and get a better look at it and get the rest of the caulking removed, once cleaned up there it was the root of my trouble,
VOIDS in the adhesive between the rudder stock and the rudder housing (See attached Pics), I laid the rudder back on its side and more water came out.
Ok now I know what the trouble is so let’s formulate a plan of action, first I’ll drill some ” holes in the top and bottom of the rudder, then stand it back up put some mild heat of about 100 to 150 deg and drive off
the remaining moisture then mix up some west systems epoxy fill in the voids and holes and be ready to go right…….WRONG..!!!!!

Here I am 2 months later and I still have water coming out, I took a small air compressor and blew low pressure air (about 10 to 15 psi) in the holes I had drilled and water came streaming out of the rudder stock connection and the other holes that I had drilled (See
Pics).

OK I’ve got to get the water of this thing before I make any repairs, so I turn to the internet of things and start reading the forums for information on drying out a rudder. Then horror set in when I read the posts about “Hunter Rudder Failures”, this made me think back to July of 2012, the wife and I were sailing back to Michigan City when we were caught
in near gail force winds and sea’s 10 to 15 ft, I know you blue water guys are saying 10 to 15 foot no big deal, but the difference between blue water and Lake Michigan is that the waves are not big slow rollers but rather steep sides and the interval between them is short,
that night ours were about 10 seconds or so apart. Any how it was 8 hours zig zagging back and forth motor sailing, at times the wave crests would push the bow around and we would roll spreader to spreader, you see where I’m going here, with the rudder full of water 300+lbs
swinging back and forth under the boat I can’t help but wonder if the composite rudder stock is stress cracked inside the rudder and no way to determine its condition. Any how we made it into Michigan City our Hunter 426 with-standing her trip nicely, we however were worn out and
beat.

Back to the rudder stock, after reading some of the forum posts about the rudder failures and they seemed to fail a few inches below the top of rudder it got me thinking so I grabbed my tape measure and went to the garage, the rudder and stock combined are about 96” (see Pics)
and the failure point as indicated in some of the posts was about 2” below the top of the rudder, about 45” down from the tip of the stock. Now I’m not a Marine Architect but I have worked in heavy industry engineering for 35 years and have witnessed many fatigue failures
over the years, so based on the size of the rudder and stock I’m guessing a water logged rudder could be a recipe for disaster.

After 3 months of trying to dry out the rudder it seems to me my best bet would be to contact Foss Foam and ship my rudder to them for repair or replacement.
I’m leaning on replacement; your comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Tom "
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Old 02-01-2015, 22:15   #45
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Ok. What is meant by Blue Water Boat?

Coming from NZ I assume its a boat thats comfortable in Forces 10 and 10m high waves and with a drogue will do OK with Force 12.

????
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