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Old 05-01-2015, 07:40   #376
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
No... I'm referring to all who say CE A. is the mark to judge a boat by..
You can CE any seaworthy boat all you need is the £12000+ for the inspection and appropriate stickers after conforming the boat to EU requirements like gas locker sticker, through hull sticker.. toilet sticker.. etc
Don't even need to switch wiring if you've a transformer..
You are talking in what concerns CE aproval of old boats that were built before the RCD (1989?). That has nothing to do with the approval of a new model.

Regarding old models, instead of oblige people to ditch them if there was not possible to have them in compliance with all the safety, stability and scantling regulations (and most boats would not comply), they allow a simplified regularization process that allows those old boats to be CE certified (a legal necessity) if they are able to comply with some minimum safety requirements. The inspection you talk about is the inspection to see if those minimum requirements were satisfied.
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Old 05-01-2015, 07:56   #377
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

There are a couple of more links with regards to brass verus bronze (or Marlon).

Here on CF, a few years ago, a great thread:

Brass Seacocks -

A good report on bronze, brass and dezinced brass, supposedly used by European manufacturers, although at least one has been caught fudging the DZR rating. Many survey professional have expressed concerns about the DZR brass.

Brass and Bronze

From that report:
"It may be unintentional that the cast RG identifier on the elbow looks like the CR marking of DZR. In fact it shows the maker, Guidi."

Questionable? Perhaps.

Another great article, even though short.

A Seacock is Your Most Important Gear | BoatTEST.com

I am not sure how anyone would want to suggest that any kind of brass is OK, even if some body certifies it, but for a limited lifespan.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:01   #378
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
A couple of things...now that you've accepted the bolded part above, I would offer that you still continue to misinterpret things. For example, this statement in boatman's post that you're holding to:

CE marking cannot be considered a "safety mark" for consumers.

Understanding the legal implications, do you really expect ANY standard or regulation to guarantee safety? Even liferafts have warnings on how they can be misused.

Also, as Polux pointed out, that piece that boatman snipped is apparently 20 years old. Does that not make you curious whether certain things therein have changed in the interim?

Sometimes zeal in trying to prove a point can get in the way of logic.
Not really, because we all make errors and I have no problem saying that I did but zeal, nah there is nothing about this that deserves that word.

I'll take you back to that time, long ago in a far away land, way back in the 1970's when Moody built a boat that did not follow Lloyds certification and both of them were sued and it devastated Moody. You see back when these boats were built there were standards, real ones and the courts decided that they were not properly met(gotta give it to the British when it comes to law, these folks wrote the book) From what I have read I really don't see the CE standard Class A offshore really means that much, after all the light weight coastal cruisers 30+ feet can meet the standards. ( I know they are working on a new and better standard for the future) So what if anything does this rating give a buyer. If you found substandard construction in your boat like a broken joint in a bulkhead or your rudder fell off when you were offshore could you sue the builder and expect to be succesful?? If you couldn't and I don't recall a case like this, then what does it say about the strength or substance to this rating that you hold so dear??
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:06   #379
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Did you actually mean to say bronze rather than brass? .
yup! my dyslexia back stapped me again
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:13   #380
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
yup! my dyslexia back stapped me again
I kept getting confused about bronze/brass for through hulls, so now I have composite and now don't give a damn about bronze & brass.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:27   #381
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Some surveyors, whose links have been provided, as well as some 'yard guys' seem to fell otherwise. Personally I will not have brass on my boat, period. It is a safety issue.

I am surprised whereby you state that European boats have a mandatory requirement to be surveyed every four years. Does that apply to all boats? Or just commercial and charter ones? I could not readily find a Google link to that requirement. Could you provide one please?
You and your requeirements I am telling you that on most EC countries private boats have to be inspected regularly and my word on that is enough. It is not only boats, cars are also subjected to regular mandatory inspections in Europe. That is common knowledge.


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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
You misinterpreted my question. I did not state that ALL other materials be excluded (Marlon arguably works well and certainly won't corrode).
I am surprised that one would support the use of brass over bronze. One cannot control electrolysis, especially in a crowded marina, can one? What is the quickest way to make that brass fitting unsafe? Electrolysis.
.....
You were saying that all should be bronze, what I said is that does not make sense since there are other adequate materials and the RCD demands a minimum of 5 years without any sign of corrosion.

I do not defend brass or any other material. Brass is an alloy made of copper and zinc and a generic therm. Many call brass to any alloy that contains cooper and zinc even if with more metals involved. There are alloys containing cooper and zinc suitable for seacocks and resistant to corrosion and are those that are used by some boat brands:

DZR Ball Valves

"The so-called dezincification resistant (DZR or DR) brasses, sometimes referred to as CR (corrosion resistant) brasses, are used where there is a large corrosion risk and where normal brasses do not meet the standards. "
Brass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brass alloys with more than 15% zinc,.. naval brass, .. were susceptible to a specific form of corrosion in seawater termed dezincification (or parting corrosion). A porous, spongy layer or plug of copper devoid of zinc developed on the metal surface when in seawater service or stagnant environments. In some cases, the layer was superficial in depth; in others, it extended completely through the wall.

Dezincification is rarely encountered today except in the case of yellow brass, which is not normally produced with an inhibitor. The addition of 1% tin to Admiralty, naval brass, .. reduces the tendency toward dezincification. The further addition of a few hundredths of a percent of arsenic effectively prevents dezincification in high-zinc alloys, such as C44300, C68700, C36600, and C46500. Antimony and phosphorus are also effective as dezincification inhibitors but are less commonly used.


Marine: Guidelines For the Use of Copper Alloys In Seawater
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:31   #382
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Great to see that some standards stick to real safety.
You're funny.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:41   #383
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

This is a DZR valve from a bene 50 ,

DZR Advice.

IMPORTANT: It is extremely important to check the material suitability and bonding requirements for below waterline components. Action must be taken to prevent galvanic action. If in doubt, please contact a qualified and competent marine engineer.

So, yes Paulo they are called brass stuff around, no matter if they have a alloy mixed in the composition to resist corrosión, DZR is junk ...
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:47   #384
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
This is a DZR valve from a bene 50 ,

DZR Advice.

IMPORTANT: It is extremely important to check the material suitability and bonding requirements for below waterline components. Action must be taken to prevent galvanic action. If in doubt, please contact a qualified and competent marine engineer.

So, yes Paulo they are called brass stuff around, no matter if they have a alloy mixed in the composition to resist corrosión, DZR is junk ...
Paulo gets a lot of the manufacturers BS from the web, don't be too hard on him
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:48   #385
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Sailorboy and others,

We changed out all of our through hull fittings last summer, just to be on the safe side. Unless you know for sure who the manufacturer is and the metal composition of the bronze, you will never really know what was installed on your boat. The prudent sailboat owner will change all of them if the boat is older than 5 years, it's not enough just to have them inspected. A skin fitting can fail from the inside where you can't see the problem. Electrolysis eats away at the fitting like calcium leaving the bones in the human body during osteoporosis, just leaving a weak shell of a fitting waiting to fail.

Everyone, no matter the make or model of the boat should be 100% certain their fittings are naval bronze. Forget about arguing about the regulations... just do it.


Example: Today, Oysters are being fitted with naval bronze fittings according to the manufacturer, BUT.... 12 years ago, who knows what the shipyard installed on our boat? I can't ask the guy who installed them which bin they came from or which manufacturer they were using at the time... so we changed all of them.
Isn't this getting at the real heart of the argument/discussion? There are certain things that the prudent owner does as part of regular maintenance or preparing for a long cruise. On a custom or semi-custom boat the manufacturer probably considered how you would do that work and built in proper access. On production boats, they didn't care. It's up to the owner to figure that out. It doesn't mean it can't be or shouldn't be done but you might need to put in more effort.

For example on my Catalina, I need to make access to get to the back of the stanchions so I can properly rebed them. I am sure you can just open up an access point on an Oyster to do this, but I actually need to cut away part of the fiberglass liner. This means a bigger mess, more forethought and a plan to repair the area.

Much has been made about the fender washers for backing on cleats. Probably fine for light use, dock queens. But if you plan to anchor during a storm or attach a sea anchor to that same cleat, a prudent owner will add additional backing plates to make that more secure. Might even change the type of cleat that is there. Doesn't mean you can't do it on a production boat and someone already did it for you on a semi-custom.

A lot was made of the early example of a Hunter rudder that had water intrusion. Right in that individual's description they said they saw the water weeping out and they ignored it. Never mind taking the prudent steps to sound your hull and rudder when out of water for a bottom job. That's the sign of a bad owner, not a bad boat (don't mean any offense to the person who posted that). A good owner, taking prudent steps probably would have noticed the issue much sooner. They also would have know that if you have water intrusion you need to open up the rudder to thoroughly inspect it to ensure the rudder is still safe. Not just drill some holes and let the water drain out.

I have said this too many times in boat discussion but I will repeat it again. Boats are a series of compromises. Going with a production boat over a semi-custom or custom boat is just another compromise. You are saying that I will take the time and effort the make necessary upgrades to the boat to make sure it is fit for my use, while going with a semi-custom or custom boat is saying I will trade money to have someone else think or do that for me.

Can you name one aspect to a production boat that can't be upgraded or made stronger for use as a "blue water" boat, if needed?

The hull to deck joint on almost all boats are the same, overlay glued with 5200 and bolted every few inches (with a minor exception for newer Hunters but I don't want to get sidetracked by that discussion). There are pros and cons to all aspects that get debated in these type of threads (e.g. spade rudders are more hydraulically efficient but more exposed but skeg hung and keel hung have hardware that can fail more readily if not properly maintained and put a lot more force on the boat and rudder due to their poor hydraulic properties). Some may argue that thicker hulls are stronger but as has already been pointed out on this thread the strength to weight (i.e. thickness) ratio of a vacuum bagged hull is higher than that of a hand laid. It's also less likely to suffer from applicator error.

Production boats are generally fit for purpose by the builder. Sticking with Catalina, they call their smaller boats "sport series" those are under 27 feet, the mid sized boats "cruiser series" 31-35 feet and their larger boats "ocean series". Cruiser series could be made into more "blue water" with some upgrades if the owner so intended. But most don't so Catalina builds them to that market.

But I would challenge anyone to name a single aspect of of a boat like the Catalina 445 that would make it unfit to sail anywhere you would take an Oyster or any other high end boat. I would put that boat up against any traditional "blue water" boat including many semi-custom and custom boats.

Someone earlier made a statement about the lack of statistical data on what makes a blue water boat. I think this is false. The insurance companies have tons of statistical data they use to determine how much to charge you or if they should even cover you in certain areas. If there were a particular boat that had more issues, they would charge you more to insure that boat. But there are not any "uninsurable" boats when it comes to particular designs or manufactures. Instead they base the insurance on the condition of the boat and the ability of the crew. Thus the need for updated surveys for insurance. Insurance companies are also smart enough to require a separate inspection by a rigger if the standing rig is over a certain age. When it comes to crew capabilities, a fair number of insurance companies want a licensed captain for delivery to the Caribbean but have no problem insuring the boat once there for use by your average skipper or proof of the crews experience. Bottom line, if production boats were unfit for blue water it would cost so much to insure them for that use it would be cost prohibitive, but it is not.

Just thought I would weigh in on the topic.

Fair winds,

Jesse
s/v Smitty
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:51   #386
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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You're funny.
Not as funny as your fender washer being a "Fuse" for a deck cleat remark...now that was funny!!!
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:52   #387
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
This is a DZR valve from a bene 50 ,

DZR Advice.

IMPORTANT: It is extremely important to check the material suitability and bonding requirements for below waterline components. Action must be taken to prevent galvanic action. If in doubt, please contact a qualified and competent marine engineer.

So, yes Paulo they are called brass stuff around, no matter if they have a alloy mixed in the composition to resist corrosión, DZR is junk ...
If someone let a seacock reach that clear visible state of corrosion it deserves anything bad it happens to his boat. All seacocs need to be changed from time to time, brass ones more frequently but as I said I know of 13 old boats with DZR brass seacocks in good shape. Seacocks has any other metal part on a boat needs to be changed from time to time as regular maintenance.

Honestly can you say from what year is that Bene 50?
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:54   #388
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Not as funny as your fender washer being a "Fuse" for a deck cleat remark...now that was funny!!!

Without mention Smack wiring hehe... now thats funy!!!
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:56   #389
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
Isn't this getting at the real heart of the argument/discussion? There are certain things that the prudent owner does as part of regular maintenance or preparing for a long cruise. On a custom or semi-custom boat the manufacturer probably considered how you would do that work and built in proper access. On production boats, they didn't care. It's up to the owner to figure that out. It doesn't mean it can't be or shouldn't be done but you might need to put in more effort.

For example on my Catalina, I need to make access to get to the back of the stanchions so I can properly rebed them. I am sure you can just open up an access point on an Oyster to do this, but I actually need to cut away part of the fiberglass liner. This means a bigger mess, more forethought and a plan to repair the area.

Much has been made about the fender washers for backing on cleats. Probably fine for light use, dock queens. But if you plan to anchor during a storm or attach a sea anchor to that same cleat, a prudent owner will add additional backing plates to make that more secure. Might even change the type of cleat that is there. Doesn't mean you can't do it on a production boat and someone already did it for you on a semi-custom.

A lot was made of the early example of a Hunter rudder that had water intrusion. Right in that individual's description they said they saw the water weeping out and they ignored it. Never mind taking the prudent steps to sound your hull and rudder when out of water for a bottom job. That's the sign of a bad owner, not a bat boat (don't mean any offense to the person who posted that). A good owner, taking prudent steps probably would have noticed the issue much sooner. They also would have know that if you have water intrusion you need to open up the rudder to thoroughly inspect it to ensure the rudder is still safe. Not just drill some holes and let the water drain out.

I have said this too many times in boat discussion but I will repeat it again. Boats are a series of compromises. Going with a production boat over a semi-custom or custom boat is just another compromise. You are saying that I will take the time and effort the make necessary upgrades to the boat to make sure it is fit for my use, while going with a semi-custom or custom boat is saying I will trade money to have someone else think or do that for me.

Can you name one aspect to a production boat that can't be upgraded or made stronger for use as a "blue water" boat, if needed?

The hull to deck joint on almost all boats are the same, overlay glued with 5200 and bolted every few inches (with a minor exception for newer Hunters but I don't want to get sidetracked by that discussion). There are pros and cons to all aspects that get debated in these type of threads (e.g. spade rudders are more hydraulically efficient but more exposed but skeg hung and keel hung have hardware that can fail more readily if not properly maintained and put a lot more force on the boat and rudder due to their poor hydraulic properties). Some may argue that thicker hulls are stronger but as has already been pointed out on this thread the strength to weight (i.e. thickness) ratio of a vacuum bagged hull is higher than that of a hand laid. It's also less likely to suffer from applicator error.

Production boats are generally fit for purpose by the builder. Sticking with Catalina, they call their smaller boats "sport series" those are under 27 feet, the mid sized boats "cruiser series" 31-35 feet and their larger boats "ocean series". Cruiser series could be made into more "blue water" with some upgrades if the owner so intended. But most don't so Catalina builds them to that market.

But I would challenge anyone to name a single aspect of of a boat like the Catalina 445 that would make it unfit to sail anywhere you would take an Oyster or any other high end boat. I would put that boat up against any traditional "blue water" boat including many semi-custom and custom boats.

Someone earlier made a statement about the lack of statistical data on what makes a blue water boat. I think this is false. The insurance companies have tons of statistical data they use to determine how much to charge you or if they should even cover you in certain areas. If there were a particular boat that had more issues, they would charge you more to insure that boat. But there are not any "uninsurable" boats when it comes to particular designs or manufactures. Instead they base the insurance on the condition of the boat and the ability of the crew. Thus the need for updated surveys for insurance. Insurance companies are also smart enough to require a separate inspection by a rigger if the standing rig is over a certain age. When it comes to crew capabilities, a fair number of insurance companies want a licensed captain for delivery to the Caribbean but have no problem insuring the boat once there for use by your average skipper or proof of the crews experience. Bottom line, if production boats were unfit for blue water it would cost so much to insure them for that use it would be cost prohibitive, but it is not.

Just thought I would weigh in on the topic.

Fair winds,

Jesse
s/v Smitty
Well written Jesse, I think your choice was a good one.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:58   #390
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
So what requirements you need to Certf a boat in EU if is a old boat or new one coming from overseas out of the EU?
This really depends on the country you are living in and under which flag you want to register the boat. There is no EU standard for this, as far as I know.
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