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Old 05-01-2015, 05:37   #346
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Keep reading here a lot about brass, but near as I can tell it is being written by 1 person about 1 boat. Even writing it 10 times it is still 1 boat.

How about providing details of this boat or others that are known to have brass valves? Things such has model, year built, year inspected, new or used.
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Old 05-01-2015, 05:40   #347
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pirate Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

And.. imho you guys continue to misinterpret CE....

Existing in its present form since 1995, the CE marking indicates the compliance with EU legislation of a product, wherever in the world manufactured, and enables its free movement within the European market. By affixing the CE marking on a product, a manufacturer is declaring, at its sole responsibility, conformity with all of the legal requirements to achieve CE marking which allows free movement and sale of the product throughout the European Economic Area. CE marking is intended for national market surveillance enforcement authorities.
CE marking signifies that the product conforms with all EU directives or EU regulations that apply to it. For example, most electrical products must comply with the Low Voltage Directive and the EMC Directive; toys must comply with the Toy Safety Directive. The marking does not indicate EEA manufacture.[4] The manufacturer of CE-marked goods has verified that the product complies with all applicable EU requirements, such as safety, health, and environmental protection, and, if stipulated in any EU product legislation, has had them examined by a Notified Body or produces according to a certified production quality system.
Not all products need CE marking to be traded in the EEA; only product categories subject to relevant directives or regulations are required (and allowed) to bear CE marking. Most CE-marked products can be placed on the market subject only to an internal production control by the manufacturer (Module A; see Self-certification, below), with no independent check of the conformity of the product with EU legislation; ANEC has cautioned that, amongst other things, CE marking cannot be considered a "safety mark" for consumers.[5]
CE marking is a self-certification scheme. Retailers sometimes refer to products as "CE approved", but the mark does not actually signify approval. Certain categories of products require type-testing by an independent body to ensure conformity with relevant technical standards, but CE marking in itself does not certify that this has been done.
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Old 05-01-2015, 05:59   #348
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Keep reading here a lot about brass, but near as I can tell it is being written by 1 person about 1 boat. Even writing it 10 times it is still 1 boat.

How about providing details of this boat or others that are known to have brass valves? Things such has model, year built, year inspected, new or used.
Sounds like it's more than one person speaking about a single boat:

Quote:

A leading marine surveyor is warning yachtsmen that their boats could be in danger of sinking because thousands of seacocks and through-hull fittings are made from brass rather than bronze.

Paul Stevens, 58, a founding member of British Marine Surveyors Europe, is ‘incredulous’ that some boatbuilders are fitting out yachts with brass ball valve-type seacocks which are designed for fresh water plumbing and piping systems.

In salt water, brass is prone to a form of corrosion called dezincification, which makes them brittle and subject to failure.

Mr Stevens has examined yachts where cheaper brass seacocks have corroded so badly that they snapped off in his hands on inspection.

‘It used to be the case that boatbuilders only ever fitted bronze seacocks which are virtually fail safe,’ he said.

But bronze and DZR brass – which is resistant to corrosion – is four times the price of ordinary brass.

Ordinary brass will probably last five years, Mr Stevens admits, but if you introduce other factors, like electrical current leakage and associated electrolytic action (especially with marina shorepower), the rate of dezincification of brass fittings will be rapidly accelerated.

Read more at 'Nightmare' of seacock safety - Yachting Monthly

http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Seaco...tevens%202.pdf
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:19   #349
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Just links to 1 person saying this without any other details, doesn't really change anything far as who/what/when. Heck that photo in the linked article could be from a 1970 boat.

You can argue for "better" till you run out of breath. I think the standard for seawater valves should be monel.
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:23   #350
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Never mind, Jon - I just reread your post and realized that it was broken into two points, and not the three points I initially read it as. So the paragraph below the dock pic still related to that pic.

I also realize now that you meant large windows in the hull, not the deck. Was the boat actually damaged?
Based upon what I observed, I'd say the integrity of that large hull portlight was certainly 'compromised', at a minimum... Those were not good sounds I was hearing... :-)

I was helping them in their effort to push the boat off in order to re-position their fenders, and place a could of additional ones borrowed from other boats... The amount of noticeable flexing of the topsides when making contact with the dock was pretty spooky, and would have to have given pause to anyone who thinks putting picture windows in the hulls of production boats built to a price point is a good idea... :-)

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But that book is still pretty dated. Lots of technology, production techniques and design considerations have come since.

Mark
Agreed, that's why I only recommend it as a starting point...

However, many things about sailing offshore haven't changed. Design considerations such as the vulnerability of companionways to downflooding will always exist, and some dinosaurs like myself might still prefer characteristics like a well ventilated boat over the opposite, for instance, or wider side decks over narrow...

Bob Perry's PERRY ON YACHT DESIGN is another excellent primer, he does a great job of explaining of what works, and what doesn't, and how everything in the design and construction of a sailing yacht is of a single piece, and the interplay of compromise for every change made... Plus, it's simply a very enjoyable read, Bob tells a good tale, highly recommended...
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:24   #351
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

You dont need dozen of links , is a well know isue concerning owners and boatyards ,
Brass is junk ......
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:33   #352
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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The fact is that modern European productions boats are generally well built and can take a competent sailor anywhere he or she wants , WITHIN reason. the evidence is sailing around the world as we speak. ( proof and pudding etc). The US obsession is rather like an argument that says " its all very well if it works in practice, but will it work in theory"

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The "bluewater" obsession is a great marketing tool.
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:35   #353
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Just links to 1 person saying this without any other details, doesn't really change anything far as who/what/when.
Yeah, "a founding member of British Marine Surveyors Europe", that's probably just another way of saying he's just one of those "self-appointed, armchair surveyors", I suppose...

Hey, you're certainly free to believe what you want to believe...

:-)
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:42   #354
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
Just links to 1 person saying this without any other details, doesn't really change anything far as who/what/when. Heck that photo in the linked article could be from a 1970 boat.

You can argue for "better" till you run out of breath. I think the standard for seawater valves should be monel.
Some more links. From professionals, not internet forum experts. Sometimes experts should be listened to.

Marine Survey 101, Do your own marine survey

Yes, the same fellow as in the article. Look at his examples and ask yourself if you want those in your boat.

Perhaps you want to discount his observations because he is "only one person". What is factually wrong with what he states?
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:45   #355
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The US obsession is rather like an argument that says " its all very well if it works in practice, but will it work in theory"
That's an old physics joke. I am currently reading a book that, in part, describes the invention of the first transistor. The experimentalists took the theory of the day and put it into practice, making empirical adjustments to it until it finally worked (the original theories were not accurate/incomplete).

At that point they were off running making experimental advances in leaps and bounds while the theorists ran behind them frantically trying to describe how it all worked. The principal theorist was busy reinterpreting history to show that he described it correctly all along.

Sounds a lot like boat design these days.

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Old 05-01-2015, 06:48   #356
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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The "bluewater" obsession is a great marketing tool.
Used in multiple disciplines.....2 of which are (1) selling boats and (2) attracting fruitless discussion in Internet forums.
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:53   #357
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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The 35ft Moorea, a Dufour 35 and the Canadians Waterhouse. Lived on it for 6 years, circumnavigated for 4 doing 35000nm.

The Voyage » Sailing The Waterhouse
Polux those older DuFours were really good offshore boats but not built like todays breed.
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:53   #358
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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And.. imho you guys continue to misinterpret CE....

Existing in its present form since 1995, the CE marking indicates the compliance with EU legislation of a product, wherever in the world manufactured, and enables its free movement within the European market. By affixing the CE marking on a product, a manufacturer is declaring, at its sole responsibility, conformity with all of the legal requirements to achieve CE marking which allows free movement and sale of the product throughout the .....
CE marking is a self-certification scheme. Retailers sometimes refer to products as "CE approved", but the mark does not actually signify approval. Certain categories of products require type-testing by an independent body to ensure conformity with relevant technical standards, but CE marking in itself does not certify that this has been done.
Kind of confusing your post. You are mixing CE "aproved" with RCD cerified.

Besides the actual present RCD form is from 2013, not 1995.

In what regards to be RCD certification all boat models are subjected to a detailed certification process with all relevant data regarding to scantlings, stability and other data submitted by the boat manufacturer and co signed by the boat designer that has to be a certified one.

The boat is certified through the compliance of all the required data with the minimum established requirements. It is not a different process regarding the approval of buildings or cars or airplanes. If something goes wrong and it is find out that the builders or NA falsified data they will be done for life and subjected to law suits that will mean a boat builder or a NA out of business, not speaking of jail time due to criminal charges if someone is injured or dies as consequence of that falsification.
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:55   #359
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Polux those older DuFours were really good offshore boats but not built like todays breed.
Off course, building techniques and materials are always improving as well as sailboat design.
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Old 05-01-2015, 06:56   #360
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Again? Off course it is not a deficiency. The RCD is about minimum requirements. The minimum requirement is 5 years without any sign of corrosion. I don't know of any modern boat that had to change seacocks after 5 years. My old Bavaria 36 has now 13 years and did not have to change seaccoks. European boats are mandatory surveyed by independent bodies (each 4 years) and one of the things they test are seacocks. If one needs changing they will tell.
Some surveyors, whose links have been provided, as well as some 'yard guys' seem to fell otherwise. Personally I will not have brass on my boat, period. It is a safety issue.

I am surprised whereby you state that European boats have a mandatory requirement to be surveyed every four years. Does that apply to all boats? Or just commercial and charter ones? I could not readily find a Google link to that requirement. Could you provide one please?


Quote:
If they stated that the seacocks had to be of bronze that would excluded all other materials, including metal alloys superior to Bronze. Some have them also on high quality synthetic composite materials.

What makes sense is a minimum number of years that the seacoks have to work without any sign of corrosion...and that does not mean that they don't work with some light corrosion. 5 years is a minimum.
You misinterpreted my question. I did not state that ALL other materials be excluded (Marlon arguably works well and certainly won't corrode).

I am surprised that one would support the use of brass over bronze. One cannot control electrolysis, especially in a crowded marina, can one? What is the quickest way to make that brass fitting unsafe? Electrolysis.

I'm generally a pretty frugal person, and will make a dollar stretch further than most think is possible. That is not something I will do when safety comes into play, and keeping the water on the outside of the boat requires the best, not the most adequate, equipment.
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