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Old 04-01-2015, 19:40   #331
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I wouldn't agree with polix conclusion persay. It's very unlikely a simple day sailor would be cat A for example. It's far more then merely sea state. Etc.

Nor is there any potential for confusion amongst buyers. Certainly in Europe , it's a forgone conclusion, that anything one would be looking at , above an obviously day sailor would be cat A. Hence very few buyers are looking at the RCD rating, other then dismissing anything not cat A.

This is why any manufacturer looking to sell into the " offshore capable" ( let's use that ) is going to be cat A and nothing else

After that it's the buyer evaluating what's important., nobody is confusing a Rustler CaT A yacht ( at 600-800k) with a beneteau 33 cat A yacht for example..

This type of discussion here simply doesn't take place in Europe.

Like I said its a minimum standard., even mass production builders are often ( though not always ) well in advance of the minimums needed under the RCD..

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Dave - to keep it simple, here is the current definition (I believe - it might have been updated):

Quote:
A: OCEAN,
Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.
So - Polux is absolutely correct in his refinement above. And this is important in that much of the US-based debate/phobia centers on what conditions a boat can handle off-shore.
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Old 04-01-2015, 20:45   #332
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by OutOfControl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyonr3
under power, we motor at 7 to 8 knots, thats over 200 miles per day..




Mark, 8kts per hour x 24 hours = 192 nautical miles.
When you convert to statue miles it becomes over 200. (211 +/-)
Not sure if this is what Randyonr3 meant.
Thank You
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Old 04-01-2015, 21:08   #333
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Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Dave - to keep it simple, here is the current definition (I believe - it might have been updated):

So - Polux is absolutely correct in his refinement above. And this is important in that much of the US-based debate/phobia centers on what conditions a boat can handle off-shore.

That definition is merely a summary. To meet cat A RCD is far more then merely that , an assessor examine the design of a day sailor is unlikely to agree that she is " largely self sufficient " and hence most day sailors will not be cat A..

Again , The RCD is not primarily about sea conditions or whether the boat can handle them. There actually no specific tests that the boat HAS to pass to be regarded as capable of handling these seas.. Much of this os down to the notified body and it's assessors..

Just to state it again, the RCD is not a method of judging which boat IS a capable sea boat. However it may be used to determine ones that are NOT likely to be so.

In motor boats for example, few are category A , merely because few carry enough fuel to be regarded as " largely self sufficient " , yet the class B boat may have all the necessary requirements ( strength , stability , etc) to handle a category A sea state.

One must be very careful in how one regards those definitions, you could live in a area. Where even for simple coastal cruising minimum cat A isnt sufficient.




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Old 04-01-2015, 23:45   #334
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

A question was asked, but not answered, "Is there anyone who prefers brass seacocks over bronze?"
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Old 05-01-2015, 01:17   #335
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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A question was asked, but not answered, "Is there anyone who prefers brass seacocks over bronze?"
A salvager?
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Old 05-01-2015, 02:15   #336
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Okay - honestly, you either need to dispense with the recommendations that people sail a Catalina 27 or a homemade plywood sailboat around the world - our you need to trade your boat in and do what you're suggesting.

If I recall, you own one of the "blue water" boat brands. Which is fine. But you'll notice that no one talking about blue water production boats in this thread is advocating what you are.

So - you go first dude. I'll hold your beer.
I'm getting to old for that game now but a good sailor could take your Hunter around the horn, with a little bit of luck. You don't need much of a boat to make it, some times.
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Old 05-01-2015, 03:34   #337
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

This little girl circumnavigated in a Jeanneau



I guess that as she only rounded one cape (Hope) her journey barely qualifies as a bluewater experience.

Don't forget to vote Ultimate Bluewater, Anchor, Mono/multi Poll
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Old 05-01-2015, 03:44   #338
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Dave - to keep it simple, here is the current definition (I believe - it might have been updated):

A: OCEAN,
Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

So - Polux is absolutely correct in his refinement above. And this is important in that much of the US-based debate/phobia centers on what conditions a boat can handle off-shore.
Smack that was modified in 2013. Nothing changed in what concerns the conditions, except a better definition but vessels largely self-sufficient was taken out. The reason: you may want a boat with class A seaworthiness even if it is a daysailer and want to sail only coastly. Those conditions that refer to Class A may be found anywhere. Some of the worst conditions can be found near coasts, for instance on Biscay bay or South of Crete on the med, cape Hatteras an so on.

Now it is like this:

Design category

...

A. A recreational craft given design category A is considered to be designed for winds that may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave height of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, such as storm, violent storm, hurricane, tornado and extreme sea conditions or rogue waves.
B. A recreational craft given design category B is considered to be designed for a wind force up to, and including, 8 and significant wave height up to, and including, 4 m .
C. A watercraft given design category C is considered to be designed for a wind force up to, and including, 6 and significant wave height up to, and including, 2 m .
D. A watercraft given design category D is considered to be designed for a wind force up to, and including, 4 and significant wave height up to, and including, 0,3 m , with occasional waves of 0,5 m maximum height"


The therm Storm refers not to gales but as storms as they are described on the Beaufort scale= F10

Beaufort scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Class A refers to a minimum. Today practically all 36ft can pass Class A. It was not so some years ago where the border was 36ft. the boats are better designed and more seaworthy now and even with more difficult demands now most boats with over 33ft pass certification for class A boats.

In my opinion Class A gives you a warranty that a boat is well designed and can sustain some heavy weather but in what regards well designed modern boats is only useful in what regards very small boats, the ones that have to be extremely well designed and very seaworthy for the size to be certified as class A boat. Some only manage to certify them making then unsinkable, besides having a very good stability for the size (that give a bonus in what regards demands).

There is talks about another class with more demanding exigences than Class A that only boats with more stability and seaworthiness than 33ft could reach. Not diminishing the actual limits or the ability of those boats to cross Oceans, but defining for consumers another level of seaworthiness.
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Old 05-01-2015, 03:47   #339
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
This little girl circumnavigated in a Jeanneau



I guess that as she only rounded one cape (Hope) her journey barely qualifies as a bluewater experience.

Don't forget to vote Ultimate Bluewater, Anchor, Mono/multi Poll
"Barely qualifies as bluewater experience"

Sometimes it is difficult to identify humor on posts. You are kidding right? or do you really believe we have to pass the horn to be on bluewater waters?
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Old 05-01-2015, 03:52   #340
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water


The 35ft Moorea, a Dufour 35 and the Canadians Waterhouse. Lived on it for 6 years, circumnavigated for 4 doing 35000nm.

The Voyage ยป Sailing The Waterhouse
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Old 05-01-2015, 04:00   #341
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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"Barely qualifies as bluewater experience"

Sometimes it is difficult to identify humor on posts. You are kidding right? or do you really believe we have to pass the horn to be on bluewater waters?
The fact that I have a Jeanneau might help nudge you in the right direction

And if you still don't understand if I was serious or not, check out my poll
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Old 05-01-2015, 04:31   #342
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
The fact that I have a Jeanneau might help nudge you in the right direction

And if you still don't understand if I was serious or not, check out my poll
So if you have a Jeanneau here goes a post to you about a man of few words and even less images, Derry Ryder, an Irish retired doctor that is sailing Avocet, a Jeanneau SO 49 since 2008. First circumnavigated on one direction and now is circumnavigating on the opposed direction, heading East to West, this time with his wife.

Avocet's Adventures Around the World - Derry Ryder

The Jeanneau SO 49 is one of the best boats of this vintage and now they can be bought at really affordable prices. Very nice looking boat too:

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Old 05-01-2015, 05:03   #343
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Ones finishing others starting, that's the case with British John and Stella Dyer that are going to do it on their First 44.7 that they own since 2008. Odd choice for doing a circumnavigation? I don't know, John knows something about boats: he is a professional yachtmaster that does skippered yacht charters and has done the Atlantic circuit cruising on that boat with the wife and taken part on a big number of race classics, including 4 Fastnet.
Caribbean tour 2005
I guess they now what they are doing and know the boat

Here are them on 2009 Fastnet:

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Old 05-01-2015, 05:18   #344
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Smack that was modified in 2013. Nothing changed in what concerns the conditions, except a better definition but vessels largely self-sufficient was taken out. The reason: you may want a boat with class A seaworthiness even if it is a daysailer and want to sail only coastly. Those conditions that refer to Class A may be found anywhere. Some of the worst conditions can be found near coasts, for instance on Biscay bay or South of Crete on the med, cape Hatteras an so on.

Now it is like this:

Design category

...

A. A recreational craft given design category A is considered to be designed for winds that may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave height of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, such as storm, violent storm, hurricane, tornado and extreme sea conditions or rogue waves.
B. A recreational craft given design category B is considered to be designed for a wind force up to, and including, 8 and significant wave height up to, and including, 4 m .
C. A watercraft given design category C is considered to be designed for a wind force up to, and including, 6 and significant wave height up to, and including, 2 m .
D. A watercraft given design category D is considered to be designed for a wind force up to, and including, 4 and significant wave height up to, and including, 0,3 m , with occasional waves of 0,5 m maximum height"


The therm Storm refers not to gales but as storms as they are described on the Beaufort scale= F10

Beaufort scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Class A refers to a minimum. Today practically all 36ft can pass Class A. It was not so some years ago where the border was 36ft. the boats are better designed and more seaworthy now and even with more difficult demands now most boats with over 33ft pass certification for class A boats.

In my opinion Class A gives you a warranty that a boat is well designed and can sustain some heavy weather but in what regards well designed modern boats is only useful in what regards very small boats, the ones that have to be extremely well designed and very seaworthy for the size to be certified as class A boat. Some only manage to certify them making then unsinkable, besides having a very good stability for the size (that give a bonus in what regards demands).

There is talks about another class with more demanding exigences than Class A that only boats with more stability and seaworthiness than 33ft could reach. Not diminishing the actual limits or the ability of those boats to cross Oceans, but defining for consumers another level of seaworthiness.
Isn't is a concern to you that the standard CE A allows for brass rather than bronze seacocks? If not, why not? Or do agree, like many, that this is a deficiency?
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Old 05-01-2015, 05:33   #345
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Isn't is a concern to you that the standard CE A allows for brass rather than bronze seacocks? If not, why not? Or do agree, like many, that this is a deficiency?
Again? Off course it is not a deficiency. The RCD is about minimum requirements. The minimum requirement is 5 years without any sign of corrosion. I don't know of any modern boat that had to change seacocks after 5 years. My old Bavaria 36 has now 13 years and did not have to change seaccoks. European boats are mandatory surveyed by independent bodies (each 4 years) and one of the things they test are seacocks. If one needs changing they will tell.

If they stated that the seacocks had to be of bronze that would excluded all other materials, including metal alloys superior to Bronze. Some have them also on high quality synthetic composite materials.

What makes sense is a minimum number of years that the seacoks have to work without any sign of corrosion...and that does not mean that they don't work with some light corrosion. 5 years is a minimum.
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