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Old 04-01-2015, 17:35   #301
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post

This Euro "Boat of the Year" is built to the Class A Ocean "standard"...

Re the suitability of particular boats for venturing offshore, I prefer to be informed by what my own Lyin' Eyes & Ears tell me... :-) Anyone who witnessed this debacle in Charleston 2 winters ago, would probably have to question how comprehensive such a "Standard" is, that permits the placement of large picture windows in the topsides of such a boat, at the point of maximum beam, and within such close proximity of the shrouds/chainplates... Above the din of the wind and wave action, I could clearly hear some VERY disconcerting 'cracking' noises from where I stood...

:-))

In my view, these discussions invariably miss the point of Bluewater Suitability when digressing towards the citation of particular BRANDS, or STANDARDS... Probably just me, but what I think defines offshore seaworthiness are CHARACTERISTICS, in both design, and construction...

I always recommend this volume to anyone mulling over their selection of a boat for "Bluewater Sailing"... Sure, it's now dated in certain respects, but I still think it represents a great starting point... Really a pity it doesn't enjoy a wider audience, today...
Jon, I am missing the point of that dock picture - did the boat sink or get damaged because it fell apart against the dock? Honest question - the picture is so blurred I can't tell what is going on.

Our type of boat has large windows on the topside at the point of maximum beam and near the shrouds/chainplates. Our type of boat is also not mentioned at all in that book (yes, I have read it).

Guess I should be very afraid to leave the dock (heck, even docks are dangerous for us apparently)?

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Old 04-01-2015, 17:44   #302
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Never mind, Jon - I just reread your post and realized that it was broken into two points, and not the three points I initially read it as. So the paragraph below the dock pic still related to that pic.

I also realize now that you meant large windows in the hull, not the deck. Was the boat actually damaged?

But that book is still pretty dated. Lots of technology, production techniques and design considerations have come since.

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Old 04-01-2015, 17:52   #303
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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You forgot market sizes, production volumes, and the associated purchasing power these bring, as variables also. The bottom line is profit margins, which I don't think you disagree with.

So in your example, there is $800,000 between those two boats. Would you care to guess how much of that proportions out in the different categories you suggest?

I find it very difficult to believe that Bene is saving that much with washers over backing plates (if this is indeed true). I also find it difficult to believe that HR is spending that much more on marginally thicker hulls and other unspecified and undefined "solid" construction methods.

Personally, I don't think much of that price disparity is reflected through "flimsier construction" at all. Think about it - you could hire people and build a boat "your way" for that $800,000 difference alone.

The real reason, IMO, is that HR CANNOT build a 50' boat for $300,000. Even if they used washers and thinner hulls and cheaper interiors. They are not competitive this way - they can't source parts inexpensively, can't automate build processes, can't control material flows, can't sell enough to finance further production, etc.

Price in this argument is mostly a red herring and does not necessarily reflect build quality or suitability.

Mark
You make good points, Mark, along with Brob2's follow-up comments. Much obliged as it's a nice break from the mindless hostility that always seems to surround these Smack threads.

So along with modern mfg. efficiencies, economies of scale, and other factors already discussed, is it your position that part of the price disparity is more attributable to luxuries & aesthetics as opposed to stronger hulls & scantlings? Kind of like the Cadillac Escalade version of the Chevy Tahoe, i.e. same build quality but more luxury, more cost, and thus a disproportionately larger markup in selling price? But if tabbed bulkheads, to use one example, are no longer necessary for the structural integrity of the hull, then why wouldn't HR save that additional cost, much of which involves expensive manual labor? On the other side, if components like bronze or Marelon (vs. brass) thru-hulls, SS backing plates, solid rudder stocks, etc. would not cost Bene/Hunter/Lina that much more money, then why aren't they more routinely installed (I know some are on some of their boats)?

I think one of the reasons the fans & detractors can't resolve their differences is that cost is usually associated with quality. So if, for e.g., a Hunter has a hollow rudder stock, the detractors will say it's because it's a cheaper stock to produce for a lower-end boat, whereas the fans might say it's appropriate to save weight. As you've pointed out, there's a valid argument that FG hulls need not be built as thick anymore due to the advent of stronger & lighter composite materials. But these thinner-skinned hulls may also be cheaper to produce, at least on production boats. So the debate rages on, with one side blaming the mfg. for being cheap, and the other side attributing the purported deficiency to something other than cost (but hopefully not advocating that fender washers are superior to proper backing plates). And around it goes, with nobody getting to the heart of the issue.

Despite my aversion to the tone, manner & motivations of the OP, I for one am open to being swayed that a modern, mass-produced production boat is more akin to buying a Chevy Tahoe vs. a Yugo, and that less expensive does not necessarily equate with cheap or inferior when it comes to the build quality of its hull, decking, keel, rudder, and other essential components. At least that's what I would like to believe, since more people being able to afford & thus participate in sailing is a good thing, provided the trade-offs are known and accepted. Thanks for your input.
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Old 04-01-2015, 17:57   #304
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

But let's get back to cruising and another circumnavigation, this time by a French Canadian Family on a 2007 Bavaria 42: Ghislain Sabourin and Annie Couture departed at 9/8/2009 from Lac Champlain with the kids that had three and eight years at the time and returned 5 years later (this year).





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Old 04-01-2015, 18:06   #305
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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So here you have, by the three capes, including the Horn, solo (52 years old) non stop on a 34ft mass production boat, a Jeanneau. The story is very curious, a normal guy that wanted to do that on his boat, a Post man, and for having the time worked without any holidays during 4 years to join all the holidays together and be able to do that.

He had 180 days to circumnavigate and had done that in 185, a hell of a time on a 34ft boat. Being the French post office is employer, they give him some more free days to do it without any penalty



Alain Maignan, il en rÍvait, il l'a fait!

Chapeau to Alain Magnan, that now already retired and with more time is going to do the same on his old jeanneau, non stop, but this time against the prevailing winds. Here we have a guy that likes to sail for a long time, non stop

http://alainmaignan.sportblog.fr/
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Old 04-01-2015, 18:14   #306
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Alain Maignan, il en rÍvait, il l'a fait!

Chapeau to Alain Magnan, that now already retired and with more time is going to do the same on his old jeanneau, non stop, but this time against the prevailing winds. Here we have a guy that likes to sail for a long time, non stop
Go Alain!!!

So it's starting to sound like this whole "production boats are coastal boats" thing is a US-centric mentality/phobia. These Europeans are out there having a ball!
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Old 04-01-2015, 18:19   #307
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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But let's get back to cruising and another circumnavigation, this time by a French Canadian Family on a 2007 Bavaria 42: Ghislain Sabourin and Annie Couture departed at 9/8/2009 from Lac Champlain with the kids that had three and eight years at the time and returned 5 years later (this year).





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Nice pic's Polux but remember folks have sailed around the world in a Catalina 27 which requires a lot more skill than a 40 footer. Or how about the Japanese fellow that single handed sailed around the world via the great Capes in a little homemade plywood sailboat or Web Chiles in an open 30 footer. No reason to get too excited about this.
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Old 04-01-2015, 18:23   #308
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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You make good points, Mark, along with Brob2's follow-up comments. Much obliged as it's a nice break from the mindless hostility that always seems to surround these Smack threads.
Can you guys please just make your point without always centering it on me? Go back and look at how many times you guys have typed "Smack" in your posts. Then compare how many times I've typed your names in mine. (Hint - My threads are about boats, not you or me. This is how we all keep things away from the "mindless hostility" you describe.)

Anyway, it's getting a little creepy - and at some point you guys are going to have to start paying royalties. I'm no Kathy Griffin here.
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Old 04-01-2015, 18:41   #309
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

He he Smack, i think you got let me think, hummm , 8000 diferent opinions sugestions claims etc... this is a circus, show must go on!!!
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Old 04-01-2015, 18:47   #310
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Can you guys please just make your point without always centering it on me? Go back and look at how many times you guys have typed "Smack" in your posts. Then compare how many times I've typed your names in mine. (Hint - My threads are about boats, not you or me. This is how we all keep things away from the "mindless hostility" you describe.)

Anyway, it's getting a little creepy - and at some point you guys are going to have to start paying royalties. I'm no Kathy Griffin here.
Aw c'mon Smack, you love it, Smack. All that attention directed on you, Smack? I mean, whodda thunk? Humble ol' Smack on his modest, unassuming ol' Hunter. Just remember your buddies back at CF when you go viral . . . Smack!

Besides, you have it backwards. Your threads are about YOU. It's about boats for the rest of us.
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Old 04-01-2015, 18:51   #311
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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But let's get back to cruising and another circumnavigation, this time by a French Canadian Family on a 2007 Bavaria 42: Ghislain Sabourin and Annie Couture departed at 9/8/2009 from Lac Champlain with the kids that had three and eight years at the time and returned 5 years later (this year).
Wow. Bavarias are everywhere!



Nothing goes better with my Kilchoman than a shot like this.
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Old 04-01-2015, 18:54   #312
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Besides, you have it backwards. Your threads are about YOU. It's about boats for the rest of us.

Ouchh ,+1 Life can only be understood in reverse but must lived forward..... Jokes apart,, i only see a afraid Hunter owner unable to learn ....
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Old 04-01-2015, 19:00   #313
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Good on him as that's quite an achievement but harbor hopping the coast line is not the same as folks that cross the ocean abeam the Capes taking whatever weather comes their way. Going from anchorage to anchorage during good weather windows does not expose you to the type of winds and waves that you are sure to get when you do it as an offshore passage.
And another one passing the Horn non stop on a mass production boat, a new Delphia 40.3. It was to be a non stop solo navigation but he had to stop in Cape Town. The boat hit a container and the steering was not working at 100% so he decided to check it up before continuing. Tomek Cichocki wanted to make it on a speed record time, went rather low on the big ocean desert and was rolled by a huge wave.





Did not lose the mast but damaged communication equipment, electronics and possibly the engine. Lost some food too and had to cut on food (lost 30kg). He arrived at Brest without Engine, autopilot, without communications, without electric energy and without GPS...and pissed because he had not made it non stop.

Tomasz Cichocki in DELPHIA 40.3 completes solitary around-the-world sail
He is at sea again on another Delphia, this time a 47 to make it without stop.
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Old 04-01-2015, 19:04   #314
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Holy crap. Hitting containers. Rolled by waves. And making it home safe.

Paulo - thank you for all these examples. I knew I could count on you.
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Old 04-01-2015, 19:05   #315
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Nice pic's Polux but remember folks have sailed around the world in a Catalina 27 which requires a lot more skill than a 40 footer. Or how about the Japanese fellow that single handed sailed around the world via the great Capes in a little homemade plywood sailboat or Web Chiles in an open 30 footer. No reason to get too excited about this.
Yes but this are not one or two guys, they are dozens and dozens and dozens of families as you are going to see when I finish posting the ones that circumavigated without stop on mass production boats. Hell, probably it will be a never ending thread because they are finishing more circumnavigations faster then I can type
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