Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I think Evans already has an offer on his boat.

HAWK has been sold, the next owner is from Alaska...

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Brob2

Sorry for jumping in on an established debate, but I wanted to comment on this point.

It's very difficult to be a successful production boat builder in any part of the market these days, and as with other industries from home building to watchmaking the most likely way to survive is by either choosing low price mass production where cost reduction is paramount or small volume production where luxury/performance and/or cachet allow you to charge a premium price. If you are at the high volume production end and can't be competitive on price you won't last long. On the other hand, if you are at the top end where you do charge that premium and can't deliver on the luxury/performance and /or cachet bit you will also not survive for long, and to that end I believe the folks who succeed in that endeavor such as Oyster, at least for the most part, do.

Both types of producer could obviously change their strategy and try to switch markets, but for Hunter/Bavaria it would be difficult to change the image and cachet bit, and HR or Baltic would have to radically invest and change their plant and manufacturing processes. It's practically impossible to service in the middle ground in this industry and not much easier at the extremes, and I suspect most of the guys at the higher end not delivering a higher quality or marketable product have been weeded out by now, with most who are still struggling.

These are all good thoughts as selling a product is not just about price or cost savings. We spent our lives in land development and home building and I can tell you for a fact that we were in the fashion business and so are the boat builders. There is a reason that BMW can get such a high premium for their product and it has nothing to do with their cost base being any better or worse than a competitor. In fact I think many Japanese cars are better built when it comes to quality control but the Germans have cache and soul and they have developed this over many years. They are the highest grossing car manufacturer in the world. There are all kinds of competitors that can match their cost structure but they can't match their marketing. Marketing is about perception and the buying public have decided that they like BMW's even though the selling prices are right at the top for a high volume builder. So for example Ford could build a better car and sell it cheaper but they would never have the margins BMW have.
A company like Beneteau actually has a pretty damn good name considering the end product so hats off to their marketing team. Don't ever think a low cost high volume builder doesn't look at the pennies because that is the alter they pray at. I spent a couple of days with a writer that wrote articles for 4 major European sailing mags and he took me through exactly how these companies work and the end cost is everything. The marketing dept sets the selling price before the design is even finalized and its up to the designer and building team to make this happen and its the same story all along the chain leading to the end product. So yes they count every damn penny because if they don't get the costs down the company will not build the product.
If you are looking at a new Oyster then its a completely different game, like Rolex watches its a symbol of status something you can never get with a Beneteau or Bavaria no matter how nice they dress them up. Then there are the guys in the middle and that's a tough place to play the game but some companies have developed skills to allow them to be succesful in that arena. Just because Beneteau has a cheaper cost base than HR isn't going to decide the fate of HR because the HR buyer will not buy a Beneteau but he might buy a good used HR. We have a saying in the business that the best competitor is the product you built 2 years ago so you better keep bringing on something that can't be purchased in the used market. This is where HR has dropped the ball, there are too many good used HR's out there that can be purchased and refitted for much less money than the latest model which they have been building for too long.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Exile

Are you?
What you have managed to distort is the point that you have no idea -- nor do I -- of the qualifications of those who criticize the CE ratings. Trying to attack, with zero information, the qualifications of the dissenters does nothing to advance the debate over whether those standards are appropriate on their own merit.
.

So why don't the dissenters on the thread post their qualifications?

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

My main point with this thread is that the "low-end" boats are perfectly suited to doing the same things as those "top-end" boats.

Well, you and I obviously have a quite different interpretation of the meaning of the word "perfectly"...

:-))

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Jon - every time you post that dock pic (and antique book) I get queasy. Heh-heh.

I can assure you though, I would have no interest in sailing the boat that is specifically designed and built for the situation in that photo.

What "Standard" says it's a good idea to park any boat there in those conditions?

None that I'm aware of, that was obviously an example of exceedingly poor judgement... By a 'professional' delivery crew, no less... :-)

However, I think when you actually get out there and start going places under sail, you'll begin to appreciate that sometimes Sh_t Happens... It doesn't always require an act of poor seamanship to place a vessel in a dire situation, and you're better off with a boat that's designed and built to take whatever might be thrown her way...

[CS Cruiser]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

You are of course right although in the case of brass thru hulls every European boat builder I know uses them. American boat builders used to always use bronze and it would be nice to hear that they still do although I don't know

Totally agree here.

[TacomaSailor]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Good on him as that's quite an achievement but harbor hopping the coast line is not the same as folks that cross the ocean abeam the Capes taking whatever weather comes their way. Going from anchorage to anchorage during good weather windows does not expose you to the type of winds and waves that you are sure to get when you do it as an offshore passage.

I'm not sure your logic holds up to close scrutiny. I can quickly think of a dozen boats owned by friends who have done Mexico - South Pacific or US West Coast to Hawaii and back and never saw more than 30 knots, occasional squalls lasting half and hour and some big trade wind swells.

The worst weather I have encountered was within 50 miles of shore.
- Cape Mendocino, California
- Cape Flattery, Washington
- Point Conception, California
- Punta Arenas, California
- Puerto Refugio, Sea of Cortez
- Cape Hatteras, North Carolina
- Punta Abraeojos, Baja California

Gusts over 50-knots and breaking seas over 10' in each case

In the case of Flattery, Mendocino, Abraeojos there is no place to retreat to - once the weather catches you out - you have to ride it out - just like your ocean crossings.

I will concede that higher priced and better quality production boats are much less likely to break bits and parts while a long way from West Marine. They will be more durable when subjected to the rigors of day after day oceanic sailing and will be more likely to get the crew to the destination without breakdowns or gear failures.

However, most mid-ocean failures seem to be on equipment that an owner can replace or upgrade if needed before heading out:
halyards
sheets
shackles
blocks
sails
tracks

I suspect few oceanic boats have sunk or been incapacitated by the failure of a bow or stern cleat.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

If you are looking at a new Oyster then its a completely different game, like Rolex watches its a symbol of status something you can never get with a Beneteau or Bavaria no matter how nice they dress them up.

This is where I think this whole sailboat debate just gets super weird. One can't "get a symbol of status" with a Beneteau or Bavaria? What world do you live in?

I promise that there are many, many folks that look at even my old Hunter 40 as a "symbol of status". In fact, I kind of do myself. I'm really proud of it.

Now, though I could probably swing a Wally if I sold my home and took out a loan, I guess I have absolutely no desire to impress those people who need something like that to be impressed. Theirs is a very strange world that I have absolutely no desire to inhabit.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with where I sail my boat (the point of this thread). We'll be looking at and enjoying exactly the same things.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

It doesn't always require an act of poor seamanship to place a vessel in a dire situation, and you're better off with a boat that's designed and built to take whatever might be thrown her way...

Just as with cars, a brand new Kia can deliver one perfectly well from place to place the same way an older Mercedes or a Volvo can. But in a rollover which would one rather be in?

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

However, I think when you actually get out there and start going places under sail, you'll begin to appreciate that sometimes Sh_t Happens... It doesn't always require an act of poor seamanship to place a vessel in a dire situation, and you're better off with a boat that's designed and built to take whatever might be thrown her way...

Two things:

1.) I've been "out there - under sail" a few times. I'm going again soon. And sh_t has definitely happened while I was doing it. So I get it.

2.) Even so, I don't want a "sailboat" that is designed to be pinned against a dock in 4' chop. I want a sailboat that is designed to sail very well in water and be enjoyable at anchor. Again - just priorities.

My actual point is that there is nothing inherently wrong with the design of the production boat in your pic. It just wasn't designed for the situation it's in. Nothing wrong with the boat at all in that regard.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Just as with cars, a brand new Kia can deliver one perfectly well from place to place the same way an older Mercedes or a Volvo can. But in a rollover which would one rather be in?

This:

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

This is where I think this whole sailboat debate just gets super weird. One can't "get a symbol of status" with a Beneteau or Bavaria? What world do you live in?

I promise that there are many, many folks that look at even my old Hunter 40 as a "symbol of status". In fact, I kind of do myself. I'm really proud of it.

Now, though I could probably swing a Wally if I sold my home and took out a loan, I guess I have absolutely no desire to impress those people who need something like that to be impressed. Theirs is a very strange world that I have absolutely no desire to inhabit.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with where I sail my boat (the point of this thread). We'll be looking at and enjoying exactly the same things.

It would be a hell of a loan my friend! That aside within a knowledgeable group of sailors, no you would not have any special status with a new Bav/Benni as they are the Ford and Chevy of sailboats(nothing wrong with a Ford or Chevy) however a new Oyster would certainly do it as would a new HR or Swan and there are several others that would ring the bell as well but nope not the Benni. I am like you in this regard I could care less but I can't not see what others think. Why do you think so many people want to own a new BMW(or a used one) because it sure is not about fuel economy or low maintenance. I know people that hardly have a pot to piss in but they saved for years and bought a used Rolex, each to their own but I do know what status is about even though I don't practice it in any way.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Thanks Polux I am more interested in which standard allows builders to use brass sea water fittings and fender washers, surely that is not covered in a 1000 page document.

No, but it was already explained: 5 years without signs of corrosion are the minimum demands in what regards seacocks. I don't know of any that had to be substituted after that period. My old boat, the Bavaria 36 is now 13 years old and has yet the same seacocks. The Seacoks is one of the things that are thoroughly inspected on the regular mandatory boat inspections performed by independent bodies. I don't know of what material they are made, but they look not different then the ones I have on my boat.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

This fellow did a piss load of sailing and you can't take that away from him but you can not compare this trip to someone who does it in the open ocean.

So that does sound to me like you are narrowing your definition down to a couple of boats every few years.

Mark

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

2.) Even so, I don't want a "sailboat" that is designed to be pinned against a dock in 4' chop. I want a sailboat that is designed to sail very well in water and be enjoyable at anchor. Again - just priorities.

Well, I've never seen a sailboat that "that is designed to be pinned against a dock in 4' chop...", either...

But, I've seen plenty that would survive the situation I pictured without the hull being compromised, no problem...

I'll take the one that will do so, as opposed to one that won't, every time...

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Good on him as that's quite an achievement but harbor hopping the coast line is not the same as folks that cross the ocean abeam the Capes taking whatever weather comes their way. Going from anchorage to anchorage during good weather windows does not expose you to the type of winds and waves that you are sure to get when you do it as an offshore passage.

So here you have, by the three capes, including the Horn, solo (52 years old) non stop on a 34ft mass production boat, a Jeanneau. The story is very curious, a normal guy that wanted to do that on his boat, a Post man, and for having the time worked without any holidays during 4 years to join all the holidays together and be able to do that.

He had 180 days to circumnavigate and had done that in 185, a hell of a time on a 34ft boat. Being the French post office is employer, they give him some more free days to do it without any penalty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4jh-vEnRAc

Alain Maignan, il en rêvait, il l'a fait!

Chapeau to Alain Magnan, that now already retired and with more time is going to do the same on his old jeanneau, non stop, but this time against the prevailing winds. Here we have a guy that likes to sail for a long time, non stop

http://alainmaignan.sportblog.fr/