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Old 02-01-2015, 16:29   #16
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Most people consider a Hans Christian boat to be a true "Blue water boat"....so what did that have to do with Rebel Heart being lost at sea?
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Old 02-01-2015, 16:35   #17
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Most people consider a Hans Christian boat to be a true "Blue water boat"....so what did that have to do with Rebel Heart being lost at sea?
Very good question. From everything I read here and elsewhere, the biggest issue was rotten decking. An old boat, even a "blue water" boat, can be pretty dangerous if it's not kept up. That's true of any boat really.

That's why I prefer the newer production boats. They are great boats that are great value for what the vast majority of cruisers out there actually do.
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Old 02-01-2015, 16:39   #18
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Well personally Rich you and I both know that is really about the sailor and much less about the boat.
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Old 02-01-2015, 16:42   #19
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

An old boat, even a "blue water" boat, can be pretty dangerous if it's not kept up. That's true of any boat really.
Good to see you finally catching on. Can't imagine anyone with any knowledge or experience saying otherwise.
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Old 02-01-2015, 16:53   #20
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

OK Smack I'll leave you to it, remember an A rating means very little unless you are describing the skills of the sailor and any damn boat in the right hands can cross an ocean. While many modern boats fall far short of the type of construction of Randy's Benni 42 they too will cross oceans, its just that Randy's will do it over and over again with just the normal wear and tear.
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Old 02-01-2015, 16:54   #21
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

I think we all know it's the sailor and the condition of the boat. I think if you give a boat to someone who doesn't know how to sail or has ever sailed in those conditions there's a good chance there could be in issue weather it's a quote un quote bluewater boat or not. I think if you put an experienced sailor in a boat that might not be suitable for all the conditions you might experience out on the ocean he would probably fair better. I also think stuff happens out there and sometimes it's beyond your control and that's when you better really know how to sail versus being in a in a boat that is quote un quote Bluewater ready or a production boat. I would think the big difference would be comfortability out there. And how the boats will handle conditions. As you said a bathtub has crossed the ocean. But could you imagine the ride.Lol

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Old 02-01-2015, 17:04   #22
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Oh, why not throw some more logs on the fire...?

Are we talking about basic hull/spar/rig/foil integrity, or somewhat less fixed things such as tankage, stowage, placement of handholds, ease of maintenance, systems reliability (and accessibility, backups) etc.?

Are we considering how gentle, kind, or forgiving the boat will be to the crew on bluewater passages? (motion comfort, ergonomics, sea berths, etc.)

Are we assuming that all sizes, models, vintages/eras of a particular brand are equally seaworthy?

Are we assuming that various models age equally well, given that many of us can't / won't afford shiny new?

We once did a quickie charter on a boat where you pretty much had to have six arms with lights and a mirror and a prehensile tail to check and change the oil. Wonder how well those get maintained? Another had the battery compartment accessed - I kid you not - via the swim step below the transom... with what I though was a very flimsy, not at all very secure hatch that looked awfully easy to flood. That was just plain scary.

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Old 02-01-2015, 17:28   #23
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

The real "Dock Queens" are the people who have bought into the "Blue Water, traditional full keel myth". Slaving away fixing ****...
Have seen them all over the U.S. and Mexico.
The dry storage yards in particular are full of these dreamers...
Buy a more modern boat and take off!
Money and time ahead.
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Old 02-01-2015, 17:29   #24
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

You guys can discuss this topic forever!
I have 1994 Hunter Passage and I'll take her OTW one day, no matter what those home sitters that called themselves sailors say.
I think the main purpose of this thread is to make more people comfortable with the idea of buying production boat and than sailing it to sunset and it's great!
Keep going.
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Old 02-01-2015, 17:38   #25
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
Oh, why not throw some more logs on the fire...?

Are we talking about basic hull/spar/rig/foil integrity, or somewhat less fixed things such as tankage, stowage, placement of handholds, ease of maintenance, systems reliability (and accessibility, backups) etc.?

Are we considering how gentle, kind, or forgiving the boat will be to the crew on bluewater passages? (motion comfort, ergonomics, sea berths, etc.)

Are we assuming that all sizes, models, vintages/eras of a particular brand are equally seaworthy?

Are we assuming that various models age equally well, given that many of us can't / won't afford shiny new?

We once did a quickie charter on a boat where you pretty much had to have six arms with lights and a mirror and a prehensile tail to check and change the oil. Wonder how well those get maintained? Another had the battery compartment accessed - I kid you not - via the swim step below the transom... with what I though was a very flimsy, not at all very secure hatch that looked awfully easy to flood. That was just plain scary.

I think all this generally means is that you need to pick a boat that fits your specific needs and tastes. It doesn't necessarily say as much about the boat as it does about what you personally want in a boat.

But to specifically answer a couple of your questions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
Are we talking about basic hull/spar/rig/foil integrity, or somewhat less fixed things such as tankage, stowage, placement of handholds, ease of maintenance, systems reliability (and accessibility, backups) etc.?
Any of it really. Of course, the "less fixed things" are very customizable - so it really depends on your priorities and how you define things. For example, to some, handholds ONLY mean grab-rails mounted along the salon ceiling...though there are many other handholds available in most modern boats.

From there, you're really just looking at the big picture and what you'd need to spend to put in the stuff you personally think you need - understanding that older systems often require more attention and expense than newer systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
Are we considering how gentle, kind, or forgiving the boat will be to the crew on bluewater passages? (motion comfort, ergonomics, sea berths, etc.)
You can if you want to. But nailing any of that down empirically is pretty close to impossible.

Quote:
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Are we assuming that all sizes, models, vintages/eras of a particular brand are equally seaworthy?
Why would we do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
Are we assuming that various models age equally well, given that many of us can't / won't afford shiny new?
This is a critical question. It brings up two important issues:

1. An old Hans Christian with rotting decks can cost you a fortune to repair and still be a dangerous mess if you don't get it right.

2. A newer production boat might have a shorter "half-life" than the older, more heavily-built tanks (though I don't think anyone knows this for sure yet). If you plan to keep your boat for 20-30 years, this might be an issue.

So, yes, cost and age are definite factors. But that doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with the brand of boat you're buying to go cruising off-shore. It's more about overall value based on your own criteria - and is certainly not exclusive.
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Old 02-01-2015, 17:39   #26
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger View Post
The real "Dock Queens" are the people who have bought into the "Blue Water, traditional full keel myth". Slaving away fixing ****...
Have seen them all over the U.S. and Mexico.
The dry storage yards in particular are full of these dreamers...
Buy a more modern boat and take off!
Money and time ahead.
Bingo.
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Old 02-01-2015, 17:40   #27
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by passat5919 View Post
You guys can discuss this topic forever!
I have 1994 Hunter Passage and I'll take her OTW one day, no matter what those home sitters that called themselves sailors say.
I think the main purpose of this thread is to make more people comfortable with the idea of buying production boat and than sailing it to sunset and it's great!
Keep going.
Bingo II.
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Old 02-01-2015, 18:12   #28
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger View Post
The real "Dock Queens" are the people who have bought into the "Blue Water, traditional full keel myth". Slaving away fixing ****...
Have seen them all over the U.S. and Mexico.
The dry storage yards in particular are full of these dreamers...
Buy a more modern boat and take off!
Money and time ahead.
Shame on you, Thats a subject known to many but you just dont go out in public and say it. !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-01-2015, 18:15   #29
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

I am convinced that almost any boat can be sailed almost anywhere. The captain is what makes the difference. A wise and experienced captain can arrange to sail almost any boat safely if they have enough time to get the job done.

I have talked to and sailed with a LOT of production boats that have covered a lot of miles. Here is a small sample of my experience.

I make no statement about quality of fitness for the following boats. However, these are all PRODUCTION boats I PERSONALLY sailed with in the Sea of Cortez and south and they are all boats from the Pacific NW (except for a few of the “interesting ones” at the end of the list.

I'm just pointing out what I have seen and which boats have survived.

Long Distance boats ( From the Pacific NW to Cabo San Lucas then the Mexican Gold Coast and back to the North Sea of Cortez – over 3,000 miles ):

Caliber 40
Tartan 41 (2 boats)
Tartan 42 (4 trips Seattle to PV and back to San Diego 3,000 miles each time)
Hunter 40
Catalina 42
Hunter Open 50
Privilege 39 catamaran
Pacific Seacraft 37
Freedom 36
Fuji 35
Tayana 37
Beneteau First 38
Alberg 35
Morgan 43

Blue Water Experienced ( From the Pacific NW to Cabo San Lucas then the Mexican Gold Coast – over 2,500 miles in the Pacific Ocean)

Westsail 42
Catalina 36 (several)
Swan 381 (single hand)
Hans Christina 48
J-35
Spencer 41
Mapleleaf 60


Others I have sailed with that have had interesting experiences:

Hans Christian 38 (San Francisco - Seattle - PV - San Diego)
Hans Christian 43 from the Gulf of Mexico to the north Sea of Cortez
Cape George 36 from Seattle to Puerto Vallarta and on to Australia
Caliber 40 Seattle to Puerto Vallarta and on to Australia
Caliber 40 (2 boats) from Seattle to Juneau then Cabo, PV, Australia
Caliber 38 Seattle – Hawaii – Seattle
Sabre 42 Seattle – Panama CanalMiami
Cape George 31 - Seattle to Puerto Vallarta and on to Australia
Bristol Channel Cutter – Seattle – Cabo – PV – Hawaii (single hand)
Hylas 42 – San Franciso – Seattle – Cabo – Z’huatenejo – north Sea of Cortez
CSY 44 – BVIPanama Canal – North Sea of Cortez – Australia
Norseman 447 – Seattle – Cabo – Panama Canal – Ft Lauderdale
Norseman 447 – Seattle – PV – Honolulu
Benneteau 57 – San Diego – Honolulu – San Diego
Benneteau 42CC - San Diego - Panama Canal - Florida (single hand)
Lord Nelson 41 - Seattle - Galapagos - New Zealand - Japan - Seattle


AND my all time favorite that shows it is the skipper who makes the boat!

1967 Columbia 38 – Seattle – Panama Canal – Cartagena – Ft Lauderdale – BermudaMiamiBermuda – and then six years all over the Mediterranean. Sailed by my previous business partner who was an executive officer on a USCG buoy tender before I taught him to sail.

And finally just to point out that it really is the Captain who makes the difference:

A Maine Cat 33 Ft Lauderdale, Florida to San Diego (5,000 miles) For those of you not familiar with the boat - open cabin with a pair of 9.9 Honda outboards. The captain is a lifetime sailor who has owned two charter companies since 1985.
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Old 02-01-2015, 18:22   #30
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Shame on you, Thats a subject known to many but you just dont go out in public and say it. !!!!!!!!!!!!
oops! My bad...
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