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Old 15-06-2010, 08:54   #16
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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
CO2 is not a pollutant. And what does CO2 production have to do with plastic garbage?
Yeah its not a pollutant its just a gas. And climate change doesn't exist anyway, why would god have put that in when he invented the world..

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
American and European plastic just can't navigate to those places.
Sounds the source might be closer to your home in fact

Seriously, do consider the lifestyle factor, third world inhabitants, particularly the poor & uneducated, just do not spend their time driving around in circles between malls and supermarkets like the stupid first world consumer..

If you look at all statistics, its our lifestyle that's destroying the world, not theirs!

If you think in terms of per capita resource consumption, particularly in places like the US and those with a similar lifestyle (wouldnt call that quality of life by the way), the amount of plastic generated would be mostly down to us.

I just find the idea that those suffering the effects of climate change and pollution are supposedly at fault deeply offensive
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Old 15-06-2010, 09:32   #17
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I just find the idea that those suffering the effects of climate change and pollution are supposedly at fault deeply offensive


You really need to pop over there and have a look

There is no doubt you will be deeply offended.

There is no doubt that I am deeply offended by it. Shocked. Absolutely amazed. Not saddened, but angry. Totally angry at it all. So please, I know you have strong views but please understand I have strong views too. I have seen it smelled it and seen local councils tip collected rubbish into areas that were pristine. Tip collected rubbish that is plastics made not in EU, US or AU but in their own countries.


Each part of the environmental jugsaw puzzle is important, not only, as some suggest, the part the developed countries play.






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Old 15-06-2010, 11:01   #18
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"floating mass of trash" been there done that!

" has anyone actually (first-hand with your own eyeballs) seen the Great Pacific Garbage Patch? "

On our return trip from Hawaii to Portalnd, OR in 2002 we hit the "Garbage Patch". We had never heard of it, and wondered what the hell was going on. There was all manner of junk in the water, and other than the dead head I managed to hit in Alaska, this was the closest I came to serious damage of our boat in our entire trip. My crew was in the bow looking for glass fishing floats, we had seen several, when when he yelled "HARD OVER!". Just in time I hit the auto pilot Kill Switch and cranked the wheel hard over. We had just missed what appeared to be a large piece of metal sticking out of the water suspended by a huge piece foam which became visiable as we passed by.

From the look of it there was no doubt in my mind the boat could have been holed had we been at cruising speed.
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Old 15-06-2010, 11:37   #19
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Most plastics will break down with exposure to UV. The problem is they may not break down into their core elments/compounds but remain for a long long long time as small pellets. Because of the ocean currents and weather patterns these decomposed/decomposing plastics are being concentrated in specific areas. That may or may not be a big problem. It certainly is something we need to do something about.

Yes, third world contries love to trash their environment. They empbrace all the benefits of an improved economy but don't change their social ways quickly. Old habits persist. Still, probably most of the plastic in the oeans come from developed countries simply because of the overwhelming amount of plastic in our societies.
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Old 15-06-2010, 11:42   #20
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Only last week on TV was a report from a beautiful beach in southern England about plastics at sea

The reporter had a glass bowl half filled with sand and then pointed out the ammount, almost 40%, of plastic beads which are the recycled product used to extrude sheet plastic and injected plastic.

Much of those beads got in the sea from shipping containers lost overboard. Marine life eats it and because it cannot be digested, it stays in the gut, taking up the food space so animals starve. Jellyfish eating Leather back turtles mistake bags for jellies and also become constipated.

So many people still flush sanitary items incorporating plastic, cotton buds, which used to be made of cardboard, now plastic sticks, condoms, etc.

Bottles get washed ashore and break, leaving dangerous glass in the sand and the worst is the discarded fishing net and line which lasts decades and kills over and over again.

All humans are to blame to greater or lesser degree but generally, poorer people value their environment less than wealthier peoples, so education is vital, and also the incentive to recycle.
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Old 15-06-2010, 11:49   #21
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You don't need to travel the world to see this. I almost hit a semi submerged desk in Long Island sound last summer. I also ran through a patch of floating plastic bottles and deflated milar ballons about 1 mile wide also in Long Island Sound, New York last summer. Both were just north of the north fork of long island almost between Long Island sound and Block Island sound.
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Old 15-06-2010, 11:49   #22
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Yes, third world contries love to trash their environment. They empbrace all the benefits of an improved economy but don't change their social ways quickly.
I don't think they "love" to trash the environment, I think they just have other priorities at the moment. We weren't that quick to change our ways either - even now, when we know better. Whose is the greater moral failing: the one who has limited resources to spend, and is putting them toward getting a billion people out of starvation ... or the one who has never once had to worry about eating, knows the effect he is having, and trashes the environment anyway? Certainly we also have a responsibility to try to educate those who may not know better than to throw their trash anyplace, but sometimes that can be hard to do without implying "we're better than you" overtones.
I think the reason a lot of people haven't seen it is that it lies in an area not commonly traversed by a lot of cruisers. Also, although media reports make it sound like there's a great floating island out there, it's not one solid mass. Really more of an area where the plastic "population density" is just much higher than elsewhere.
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Old 15-06-2010, 11:55   #23
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On our return trip from Hawaii to Portalnd, OR in 2002 we hit the "Garbage Patch".
I shouldn't worry about it. There are two named great garbage patches, one between Europe and the US, the other between the US and Japan. But that's mere coincidence it has nothing to do with the massive, supermarket and shrink-wrap culture going on in those places.

You see, all that garbage is actually from Mozambique. There's a special current that brings it right across Asia and the Pacific towards the US. There's also one in the North Atlantic full of rubbish mostly from Senegal. Although they jointly have a GDP equivalent to the Vatican's, they produce phenomenal amounts of garbage, bless em.

We should also write a quick email to Charles Moore, the discoverer and perhaps most famous campaigner around the issue to stop lecturing in the US about these issues, since as everybody knows the US has stopped polluting things a long time ago. He must be confused, he should go teach the stupid povs elsewhere!

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The reporter had a glass bowl half filled with sand and then pointed out the ammount, almost 40%, of plastic beads which are the recycled product used to extrude sheet plastic and injected plastic.

Much of those beads got in the sea from shipping containers lost overboard.
Yep. I heard about that, also from Africa mostly. They are shipping containers full of recycled trash from third world inhabitants just to dump it off the UK coast now. You couldn't make this s...t up!
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Old 15-06-2010, 12:01   #24
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Yep. I heard about that, also from Africa mostly. They are shipping containers full of recycled trash from third world inhabitants just to dump it off the UK coast now. You couldn't make this s...t up!
I don't think most of those beads are coming from Africa. Unless Africa actually has a huge plastic-goods manufacturing center that they are keeping secret from the rest of us...
These are the tiny plastic pellets that are shipped between major manufacturing centers, and turned into bottles, toys, and all kinds of other plastic goodies. I'm sure plenty of trash is generated by Africa -- but I have trouble believing it's this part.
As for the dumping off the UK coast, I've heard nothing about that...could you pass along a source?
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Old 15-06-2010, 12:04   #25
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As for the dumping off the UK coast, I've heard nothing about that...could you pass along a source?
I cant see how it would get there otherwise - the UK doesn't pollute, its one of the CLEAN first world countries - we care about nature!

Third world traveller has an article about the economics of waste
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Old 15-06-2010, 12:45   #26
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. There are two named great garbage patches, one between Europe and the US, the other between the US and Japan.
Between EU and the US is also between Africa and South America. and the US and Japan is between asia and south america.

I'm not saying the US and Eu dont contribute, but nothing like the amount heaved into the oceans by the less devoloped world.

Asia pumps it out. The west coast of the USA is just about deviod of industry compared with Chinas coast.

We should be commended at the vast steps we have taken in the last 30 years.

Ask your friends: "When was the last time you trew trash down?"

So commend ourselves for doing the right thing and lets stop beating ourselves up and look for more ways we can help. And somehow educating those less fortunate is a commendable, albiet difficult mission.

Finally, mostly the developing world is NOT subsistance farming! They are out there building dirty factories, ripping out the rainforest and manufacturing as fast as they possably can. Folks have got to go and see it, we can't just sit in our ivory tower and let some ratbag with a cause tell us orange is purple. And all the while India et al laughing at us behind our Kyoto backs....

Now its bed time


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Old 15-06-2010, 15:40   #27
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Here is a related site:

5 Gyres - Understanding Plastic Pollution Through Exploration, Education, and Action
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Old 15-06-2010, 20:44   #28
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Yeah its not a pollutant its just a gas. And climate change doesn't exist anyway, why would god have put that in when he invented the world..
Your veiled ad hominem is flawed - not that it should matter, but I'm agnostic. It's funny and ironic that you would dismiss someone for having faith in something unproven, when you evidently worship at the altar of the Church of Global Warming.

CO2 is not a pollutant, nor is it just a gas; it's absolutely vital for life on this planet, as photosynthesis could not occur without it. Do you think water vapour is a pollutant too?
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Old 15-06-2010, 21:12   #29
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On our return trip from Hawaii to Portalnd, OR in 2002 we hit the "Garbage Patch". We had never heard of it, and wondered what the hell was going on. There was all manner of junk in the water, and other than the dead head I managed to hit in Alaska, this was the closest I came to serious damage of our boat in our entire trip. My crew was in the bow looking for glass fishing floats, we had seen several, when when he yelled "HARD OVER!". Just in time I hit the auto pilot Kill Switch and cranked the wheel hard over. We had just missed what appeared to be a large piece of metal sticking out of the water suspended by a huge piece foam which became visiable as we passed by.
Can you describe how big it was? Was it all clumped together or spread out? Do you have any pictures? Sorry for all the questions - I'm just curious and would like to have an unbiased report.
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Old 15-06-2010, 21:50   #30
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I would be interested if they could work out what countires it comes from.

Why?

Becuase when was the last time you threw plastic in the water on purpose? 30 years ago? Never?

But in my observation, many 3rd world countries people are not well educated and systemicly chuck huge amounts of plastics into the sea.

Western countires blame ourselves and have, imho, blinkers on about the real causes of plastic polution.

It would be good to see who is responsable for the majority of plastics wilfully discarded.

Mark
I agree with you, it would be interesting to know where the plastic basically comes from.
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