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Old 14-08-2012, 02:15   #31
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Re: Pirate Action Group

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Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood View Post
Hi Guys.
1. I am at this point a very proud, chest out, Brit. The Olympics ( all Olympics ) represent a cultural high point in human evolution. It may be aspirational beyond the checks and balances of real life but Mo exemplifies all that can be good in this unhappy world and I am proud of him.
2. Piracy is not new. It has been dealt with before with the Royal Navys yard arm and 12 foot of hemp... I am sorry to say the only solution that will ever work is to kill all pirates. The Warlords and criminals are the reason Somalia is in the state it is in. They are the cause. Not the result! Sadly, even with the will and the resources, western governments have never succeeded in any form of international social engineering. See East / West Germany post WW2 ( The Germans fixed it themselfs in the end ) Korea, Vietnam, Afganistan ( at least 4 times by Alexander the Great, Britain, USSR and the present mess... ), Iraq, Ireland etc etc etc....
I am not an extremist by any stretch of the imagination. I am a realist. The only solution is to exclude all Somali vessels from international waters without prior licensing and then treat all infringements as pirates.
Congrats on a kickbutt Olympics, deservedly proud you should be. Add in a TdeFrance win and it's a memorable summer for the Brits, one for the ages. Except the part about the Spice Girls coming back.

I would, however, suggest that the true cause of the lawlessness in Somalia, Eritrea and Ethiopia is the drought that has ravaged the area for so long and destroyed so much of the farmland that was the backbone of the economy, and just as much, the factory overfishing that the west has been doing in the horn area which has decimated the fish stocks and left many fisherman without a job, no government assistance, and fishing boats with no fish. So, um, guys, what should we do with our boats now? For a few, it was piracy.

The irony of your suggestion is that the few Somalis left who still do make a living as fisherman must go further and further out to find their catch and would be unable to do so unless someone is setting up shop and selling these licenses in Harardhere. Bradley Wiggins is the only guy I know tough enough for that assignment, and he's still out partying somewhere. As he should be.
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Old 14-08-2012, 03:48   #32
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Re: Pirate Action Group

Thanks for the kind words about the Olympics... Spice girls - well, it was fun wasnt it? I think maybe it was all a little too tongue in cheek for what it was, it being afterall a very international affair! But from a selfish perspective it was superbly gingoistic and everyone I speak to loved it!

Of course it is naive of me to take such a totalitarian stance and in truth most of the regions horrible problems can be traced far back to western exploitation and colonialism in the 18th and 19th century. What a disasterous mess. I cannot see and end to it ever. But... Something has to be done!

Im an atheist and yet I still thank God I was not born there. Thats the best I can come up with as a solution.... Hopeless.
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Old 14-08-2012, 06:59   #33
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Re: Pirate Action Group

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Crime causes poverty.

The piracy situation in Somalia got bad only after there was some form of government. During the total collapse of government, piracy dropped ot near zero. Before and after when there was some semblance of government, piracy flourished. No direct evidence that the varous Somali governments are involved in the actual commision of piracy but certainly seem to benefit from it.
that would be the high conflict parts of the 20 year civil war after (in part) the military rule was ousted by the now pirates ?

i assume they would have been too busy.
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Old 14-08-2012, 08:16   #34
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Re: Pirate Action Group

It is hard not to get rich while you get another million dollars each time some stupid government pays to bail out them stupid cruisers.

How much piracy would there be if ransoms were not paid and pirates were be shot on the spot?

I am actually thinking of setting up a similar scheme in Canary Islands. With some 200 ARC boats each year I think every local bank will gladly provide the necessary start-up capital.

;-)

b.
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Old 14-08-2012, 17:33   #35
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Re: Pirate Action Group

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How much piracy would there be if ransoms were not paid and pirates were be shot on the spot?
Well, That would certainly cut into their profits and lower the incentive to become a Pirate by a substantial margin.
-Bruce
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Old 14-08-2012, 18:51   #36
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Originally Posted by Nemo55
I am not advocating putting a Cruise Missile through any-ones window, but our ships captains in the area should not have their hands tied by bureaucrats who just sit there wringing there hands.
Rather they should be protected by any means necessary, because bad language hurled at them doesn't seem to work.
Bob/Connie, you are as always correct in your take on the situation.
Take the profitability away by policing the oceans and the piracy will stop, as it did hundreds of years ago.
You of course might like to read how long it's took the then world powers to actually eradicate the Barbary pirates. If its similar , we have many more years of the Somali ones so.

In fact Barbary piracy was on,y finally eradicated when the European powers occupied and colonised north Africa. A portent for what might be needed in Somalia !!

Dave
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Old 14-08-2012, 18:59   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thames 4 Blood
Hi Guys.
1. I am at this point a very proud, chest out, Brit. The Olympics ( all Olympics ) represent a cultural high point in human evolution. It may be aspirational beyond the checks and balances of real life but Mo exemplifies all that can be good in this unhappy world and I am proud of him.
2. Piracy is not new. It has been dealt with before with the Royal Navys yard arm and 12 foot of hemp... I am sorry to say the only solution that will ever work is to kill all pirates. The Warlords and criminals are the reason Somalia is in the state it is in. They are the cause. Not the result! Sadly, even with the will and the resources, western governments have never succeeded in any form of international social engineering. See East / West Germany post WW2 ( The Germans fixed it themselfs in the end ) Korea, Vietnam, Afganistan ( at least 4 times by Alexander the Great, Britain, USSR and the present mess... ), Iraq, Ireland etc etc etc....
I am not an extremist by any stretch of the imagination. I am a realist. The only solution is to exclude all Somali vessels from international waters without prior licensing and then treat all infringements as pirates.
You might like to add practical advise as to how you interdict 1500 miles of coastline and a sea area of 1000s of square miles with military ships capable of 20 knots etc. Not to mention the issue of " identifying Somali vessels" , but of course they all fly an ensign and carry registration papers. !!!! Or maybe you mean shoot anything driven by a black man

Read the history of the Barbary pirates. Read the difficulties the RN had in trying to eradicate them. Successful spot actions but failed to remove threat etc. killing all pirates means waging a war of effective genocide, I'm sure you wouldn't wish the thevUK to be hauled up before the ICC !


All that can be done by modern military efforts is " suppression" ie reducing the actions to the point where the worlds maritime community will accept the idea. ( a bit like the concept of acceptable violence ) the causes that drive people into piracy will remain and will do so until those underlying issues are solved. The solution will not be military


Keep the practical ideas coming.

Dave
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Old 14-08-2012, 21:47   #38
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Re: Pirate Action Group

The Barbary pirates can't really be compared, as Tunis, Algiers, Sallee, and all the rest of them were diplomatically recognized countries which were proxies of the Caliphate. The political intrigues involved in their long history could never be close to replicated in Somalia, as Barbarossa Hayreddin and all the other great corsairs answered directly to the Sultan. It would be like if the Somali pirates actually worked for say, Russia. The British had a centuries long policy of diplomatic entente with the Barbary pirates, partly because they didn't want to endanger trade with Turkey, but also because they were happy for the North Africans to be a thorn in their opponents side instead of theirs.
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Old 14-08-2012, 22:12   #39
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Re: Pirate Action Group

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It would be like if the Somali pirates actually worked for say, Russia.
Speaking of Russia, WOW!
One only has to look "Russians vs Somali Pirates" on youtube to get many hits about how they handle it. They apparently don't mess around.
-Bruce
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Old 14-08-2012, 22:52   #40
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Re: Pirate Action Group

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
The Barbary pirates can't really be compared, as Tunis, Algiers, Sallee, and all the rest of them were diplomatically recognized countries which were proxies of the Caliphate. The political intrigues involved in their long history could never be close to replicated in Somalia, as Barbarossa Hayreddin and all the other great corsairs answered directly to the Sultan. It would be like if the Somali pirates actually worked for say, Russia. The British had a centuries long policy of diplomatic entente with the Barbary pirates, partly because they didn't want to endanger trade with Turkey, but also because they were happy for the North Africans to be a thorn in their opponents side instead of theirs.
They actually worked for say -fill in the blank-...now we are getting closer to the reason of the ryhme...they are working for someone other than themselves...or do some people think that these poor ,uneducated, and rather crude "pirates" could do and continue doing this all by themselves...makes me wonder who really is uneducated and crude...DVC
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Old 15-08-2012, 02:33   #41
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Re: Pirate Action Group

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They actually worked for say -fill in the blank-...now we are getting closer to the reason of the ryhme...they are working for someone other than themselves...or do some people think that these poor ,uneducated, and rather crude "pirates" could do and continue doing this all by themselves...makes me wonder who really is uneducated and crude...DVC
the pirates in the strait of malacca only run fairly local gangs from what i've read. but they just board, take money and run, which is where the somali's started.

so how do you pin down the core of such a large onion as international crime? Following the money trail was suggested, but isnt it paid in cash, into a lawless part of the world? you would assume there would be a fair trail before it ever hits anything like a bank account.
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Old 16-08-2012, 08:10   #42
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Re: Pirate Action Group

goboatingnow (Dave) wrote: "Keep the practical ideas coming." ==> OK, one of the traditional anti piracy measures was to arm commercial shipping. In today's context this could be done with existing, even old, technology that is relatively inexpensive and often surplus. You don't have to go look for the pirates, it is their job to come and find you.

What is needed is some form of international/UN treaty which will allow some specified weaponry to be carried - and it is not that hard to control or use by even regular crew.

Such a weapon might be a recoil-less rifle(s) mounted at high points on the ship superstructure. Because they are recoil-less, the mounting tower need not be very heavy or expensive. As a safety matter, a steel tube can be welded to the mount to insure that the weapon cannot be depressed far enough to endanger the ship itself.

For aligning the weapon with the target, a semiautomatic sniper rifle can be coaxial with the recoil-less rifle and mount both telescopic and thermal sights. The ballistics of the small rifle match the ballistics of the recoil-less rifle and fire a tracer spotting round.

If a small boat is maneuvering at speed to approach the armed commercial ship, the weapon can be quickly maned and brought into action. Firing the spotting rounds will: 1) serve as a warning that the commercial ship prefers not to be approached; and, 2) shows when the weapon is on target and the larger recoil-less rifle can be fired. Note that being high on the superstructure, the muzzle will be down and that the resulting back blast will be up away from the ship and crew. This targeting system is not so complex that regular crew cannot easily be trained to use it.

The recoil-less rifle ammunition is a simple shrapnel type round with a proximity fuse preset for optimum use against small fast boats. Such a shell will typically only be effective against small light targets and disperse several hundred inert steel fragments at destructive velocities in a conical pattern. Such a weapon will generally out-range the effective range of an AK-47, light machine gun, or rocket propelled grenade (RPG) - the typical pirate weapons carried in small open boats.

The new international rules can specify the accounting for any expended ammunition and incorporate a gun camera to record the use of any weapon. When not under threat, the recoil-less rifle can be locked into a muzzle up position which can be easily seen and verified at a distance by any concerned law enforcement personnel that might need to do so.

Such a system can easily and economically make it possible for commercial ships to defend themselves from the tactics currently employed by most modern pirates. While it is not possible for most private yachts to employ such a defense, they can use the simple tactic of not penetrating pirate infested waters until the commercial ships have reduced the problem back to the background level of say, thirty years ago.
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