Piracy - Reality vs Perception

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

And hiding in plain sight isn't difficult.

Now that is the old Fisheries Officers trick as derived from many a dogfight or boarding, and yes I have been boarded after telling the in debt skipper that there was something coming toward us behind the cloke of the sun and it might be a good time to start throwing the illegal catch overboard.

Likewise, from an academic radio show lately it was put forward that the real problem in Somalia started when the government collapsed and foreign boats were able to plunder their waters. From there organised criminals started funding the once “fisherman”.

Really to me it seems like a sad state of affairs?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Bruce626

"I beleive targetting innocent people is called murder." - Perhaps, but no one is targeting innocent people, the intent is to target pirates and their facilitators.

"The act of issuing letters of Margue has long been tantamount to declaring war." - Not a problem for me. What are the pirates going to do that they are not already doing?

"This is a law enforcement action not a war." - Exactly wrong. If you think so then I invite you to get a badge and go round up the bad pirates yourself. It is clearly NOT a law enforcement problem because there is no law in the country which is a failed state.

"We play by our rules or we descend to piracy ourselves." - Yes, we hear this fuzzy thinking a lot from people with no effective plan; it just isn't true. Killing pirates is justice, not piracy.

Sorry I just read two posts one about shooting up anything that" looked" like a pirate and the other was using helicopters to strafe " big houses". That in my book is murder

You would allow letters of marque , tantamount to allowing unrestrained private armies to mow down innocent Somalis. I'm speechless

As to " law enforcement" it's self evidentially so. We are enforcing international laws against piracy. It's got nothing to do with the Somali state , failed or otherwise.

"killing pirates is justice. "

Killing this nonsense of a thread is " justice"

The great thing is that the navies are doing a good job and thank god they don't pay the slightest bit of attention to the absolute rubbish spoken here

Dave

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by SurferShane

...the real problem in Somalia started when the government collapsed and foreign boats were able to plunder their waters...

This has been mentioned several times as well. Another advantage of a coastal quarantine (blockade) is that besides keeping the guns out of the Indian Ocean, it would prevent this illegal fishing. I, for one, would much rather help the Somalis make a legitimate living than simply giving them money. And yes, a very sad state of affairs.

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

...Killing this nonsense of a thread is "justice". The great thing is that the navies are doing a good job and thank god they don't pay the slightest bit of attention to the absolute rubbish spoken here. Dave

Dave, I agree that there are always ... well, lets be nice & call them "Dingbats" on these forums (not enough chlorine in the gene-pool). Not sure you'll ever get rid of 'em. And I'm not as sanguine about the job the navy is doing - they're certainly trying to do a good job, but their actual success rate isn't that good (probably not really their fault as I think the politicians have tied the navy's hands).

But there are usually more folks who are interested, concerned, & don't propose sillyness. Ignoring the Dingbats doesn't make 'em go away, but it does lessen their impact. If you don't like a thread, you don't have to participate. Killing a thread doesn't do justice to those of us trying to get some value out of it. If you ignore the Dingbats, I think there's some useful info in here.

[Bruce626]

"But I don't think you know how the Somali pirates behave. They don't want to be known, so they go to some lengths to look like fishermen (which isn't hard). They only use their outboard powered open boats for their attacks. They're not charging around in them all the time. Most of the time those boats are dragged behind the mother ship or pulled up on board. They plan their attacks from their mother ship & only then launch their attack boats." - OK, although most of the descriptions I have read indicate what sounds like uncoordinated attacks by single high speed open boats. If you are correct then it should make things easier - not harder.

If the Somali coast is 1500 miles long, then the regional naval power could be deployed to control only a critical 1500 square miles - a strip one mile wide along the length of the coast. Any Ship fitting the description of a mother ship would have to 'clear' at several designated locations where all would be boarded and thoroughly searched (sinking any evaders to encourage voluntary compliance). Finding an RPG (the only weapon they carry really capable of damaging a large steel ship) would mean pirates have been located and could then be dealt with (disarming them at a minimum and possibly putting a concealed locator transponder on board). This will only work for a short time before the pirates will put their arms on one of the small boats and try to evade the blockade while planning on a later rendezvous. The international force would then have to apply the 'clearing' procedure to all boats leaving Somali waters and sink any boats trying to evade using the armed helicopters. All that is really necessary is to keep the Somali pirates pinned to their coastline and deny them RPGs or other heavy weapons. Staying further off shore - which everyone tried - would again be a viable option. Passive and possibly active defense of large merchant ships would easily take care of most attacks if the largest offensive weapon was an AK-47 (governments around the world have greatly contributed to this problem by making it virtually impossible for victims to defend themselves).

[Bruce626]

'I just read two posts one about shooting up anything that" looked" like a pirate' - Spin it the way you want, but I believe I said "It is the behavior and the equipment that give pirates away".

'the other was using helicopters to strafe " big houses".' - This was merely an implementation detail to someone else's original suggestion. Perhaps you should pay closer attention to previous posts.

"That in my book is murder." - You are entitled to think of it any way you wish - perhaps you also think of capital punishment as 'murder' as well. I think of it as collateral damage and as an inducement for the Somalis themselves to get their act together and form a responsible government.

"You would allow letters of marque , tantamount to allowing unrestrained private armies to mow down innocent Somalis. I'm speechless." - Clearly not. First, the civilian contractor would not be paid for 'mowing down' anyone - the videotape would have to show the effective destruction of a pirate asset. Second, what makes you think that armed Somalis in a fast boat with boarding ladders are 'innocent'. You are probably one of those people who want to try human fuzes for murder - after the fact.

'As to " law enforcement" it's self evidentially so. We are enforcing international laws against piracy. It's got nothing to do with the Somali state , failed or otherwise" - When the absence of an effective Somali government partner makes a mockery of there being any ability to enforce any law - it should be self evident that the law enforcement model is not working.It should be clear that the "Old Shish-kabob" crowd needs some negative reinforcement to motivate them to change their behavior.

"The great thing is that the navies are doing a good job and thank god they don't pay the slightest bit of attention to the absolute rubbish spoken here," - Something that we perhaps agree on - especially with the recent Navy SEAL action and effective action by the Russians (and perhaps others) - the trend seems to be that we are finally getting fed up with the situation and are beginning to take sterner measures.

[Bruce626]

"I agree that there are always ... well, lets be nice & call them "Dingbats" on these forums (not enough chlorine in the gene-pool)" - One can always detect when the losing side has run out of cogent debating points and facts when the childish name calling starts.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Bruce626

"I agree that there are always ... well, lets be nice & call them "Dingbats" on these forums (not enough chlorine in the gene-pool)" - One can always detect when the losing side has run out of cogent debating points and facts when the childish name calling starts.

I'm not sure which side you believe your on. It's easy to suggest all sorts of hell and brimfire solutions, generally arrived at by watching too much Hollywood crap action movies.

This problem will take time to resolve, ships are becoming cleverer, the various navies are getting better at interdiction, especially before any boarding. In the meantime pleasure yachts have no business being anywhere near the place.

Dave

[BeenThereAteIt]

Piracy is like cancer. The odds of developing cancer is small.
Still, if your diagnosed with cancer do the statistics matter ?

Respectfully,
Paul

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by BeenThereAteIt

Piracy is like cancer. The odds of developing cancer is small.
Still, if your diagnosed with cancer do the statistics matter ?

Respectfully,
Paul

Actually... the odds of you having cancer are 90%..... its in yer genes...
Its whether it goes on the rampage is what makes the difference....
Bit like Pirates I suppose...

[Bruce626]

"It's easy to suggest all sorts of hell and brimfire solutions, generally arrived at by watching too much Hollywood crap action movies." - I suppose that its easy to think this way about people with differing opinions when you are convinced that you are right. Fine, but I don't get my foreign policy credentials from Hollywood - I am a combat veteran of the Vietnam era and watched the politicians and peaceniks screw that one up - so I think that I am entitled to my own opinion even if you don't like it. It is easy to just sit back and let someone else come up with the solutions.

I live in the Philippines and will shortly cruise there, and I have NO intention of going to the piracy 'hot spots' in the south, nor to the Straights of Malacca, and certainly NOT anywhere near Somalia. This is especially true since foreigners are not allowed to have any form of effective self defense weaponry here (the government can't stop the various armed militias like the NPA or the MILF from running around the country with heavy weaonry, but they are terrified of an american with a handgun).

One might note that in the early days people who just wanted to be left alone avoided Somalia by larger and larger margins - this did NOT work, the pirates just came out further. By letting this fester, we are providing a model to organized crime everywhere that this is a successful criminal enterprise.

Everyone knows that paying ransom only encourages more of th behavior one doesn't want - yet the ransoms somehow get paid and the piracy incentive gets reinforced. The only way to get inside the decision loop of pirates and their enablers is to come up with a cost effective plan to discourage the behavior. Being nice to the pirates clearly has not worked so I advocate methods that are not so nice which not everyone likes. And your plan is? Sounds like: 1) run away (tried that, didn't work); or 2) contain them nicely (trying that, doesn't seem to be working either). Meanwhile, there is a working criminal model for the Mexican and/or Colombian cartels to implement in the Carribean (its happened before, Hollywood notwithstanding).

Note - I am really tired of this thread - I joined to read about sailing stuff, something that all you guys know way more about than I, and I really regret having voiced an opinion - but sometimes I just can't help myself.

[David_Old_Jersey]

From this thread (and others ) seems clear that what most want is not simply a "safe" passage through those waters - but that safety only to be at someone else's cost (in cash and lives), whether before, during or after your "adventure of a lifetime" ...........But that be the modern way

But hard truth is that there is NO pirate "problem".

You go sailing through that part of the world then if you are sh#t out of luck you are simply (very very minor) collateral damage / part of the cost of doing business. That route was vital to the British (and European) Empires, but those days are long gone. In any event the Chinese are investing heavily in overland routes, so in Europe we should still get Xmas delivered for at least a few years yet More of a potential problem for India (as a Trading Nation) and for anyone who can't get on the end of a pipeline from the gulf states, but nothing that a short term patch of defended ships can't cope with.

[SaucySailoress]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Killing this nonsense of a thread is " justice"

The great thing is that the navies are doing a good job and thank god they don't pay the slightest bit of attention to the absolute rubbish spoken here

Dave

Dave, your suggestion that we close the thread has been duly noted, and is being held in reserve. Naturally, this thread is being monitored for signs of political unrest and personal warfare... it hasn't gone there so there is currently no need to close the thread.

I feel there is some valuable information here too, and it's certainly interesting for someone who intends to be crossing that quarter next year.

I'd like to thank everyone sincerely for their restraint and well judged input on this thread.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

This is a law enforcement action not a war. Law enforcement does not condone attacks on inncoents, due process must be followed. The fact that some say gang land hood, shoots down an innocent bystander in LA , does not give law enforcement the right to lay waste to whole blocks of a district in retribution

Law enforcement is when ONE man breaks the laws of the society he lives in and THAT society removes him or censors him for that action.

When a group of men, with the complicent consent of the society they live in take an action against a class of people from another society THAT is a WAR.

We called the communist chinese conquoring of Vietnam, "a Law enforcement action".

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Law enforcement is when ONE man breaks the laws of the society he lives in and THAT society removes him or censors him for that action.

When a group of men, with the complicent consent of the society they live in take an action against a class of people from another society THAT is a WAR.

We called the communist chinese conquoring of Vietnam [& our actions there as well - Jon], "a Law enforcement action".

Bill, I've long thought this was a good distinction as well, but I guess other's don't (or haven't thought about it as much). I do wish our politicians would let our navies take more effective action against Somali piracy.