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Old 29-05-2011, 10:39   #76
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Re: Piracy - Reality vs Perception

Yes, and the only way Tripoli was deterred was by destroying the land facilities. It's always been the way to stop piracy. You gotta get the queen bees in the hive.
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Old 29-05-2011, 11:28   #77
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Re: Piracy - Reality vs Perception

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We took more effective action a couple of hundred years ago when faced with a similar problem in a place (now immortalized in song) called Tripoli - back when we were a third world developing country without much of a navy.
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Yes, and the only way Tripoli was deterred was by destroying the land facilities. It's always been the way to stop piracy. You gotta get the queen bees in the hive.
Despite the gloss that history puts on it, a thorough reading of the history of teh Barbary pirates, will show that the intervention of the Royal Navy was ultimately instrumental in removing the immediate threat, ( see Exemouth). IN fact it took alomost a further 70 years to remove the threat of barbary piracy which was not finally removed till the first world war, and by that time European imperialism had conqured much of the former barbary states.

In fact the history of the Barbary pirates, shows that it takes far far longer to quell this type of activity, and it was never stopped by mere military action alone. It took the "nation building" of imperial colonisation to stop it.

So teh moral is , until theres a Mcdonalds and a Starbucks in downtown Putland it aint stopping.!! ( aaah modern imperialiam)

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Old 29-05-2011, 15:48   #78
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Re: Piracy - Reality vs Perception

My bet is that Ratko Mladic could fix Somalia within a week

BBC - Europeans fail to summarily execute suspect
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Old 29-05-2011, 16:39   #79
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Originally Posted by Jon Hacking
There was some debate here on going around the Cape of Good Hope. I think the Blue Water Rally (or someone) has been spreading misinformation. It's actually pretty easy, although you have to watch the weather.

The normal arrival is from NW Madagascar via Mozambique in Oct-Nov, but some boats do come around the bottom of Madagascar.

Richards Bay, 80nm N of Durban, is your first port. We stayed there 2 full years, touring greater southern Africa by land. The leg from Durban down to East London (250nm) is the only difficult one, as there are no safe stops in between. You just have to make sure there are no fronts coming up from Cape Town. You're being shot down the coast by the Agulhas Current, and you don't want to get in a wind-against-current situation.

After that, you can pretty much day-sail it if you want, as there are several safe ports, although some boats get windows that let them go all the way from Durban to Cape Town in one shot. (IMHO, this bypasses some great cruising grounds)

Most boats leave Cape Town early in the year, bound for St Helena & then Brazil, with a possible stop in Ascension. If you leave early enough, you can get to Brazil in time for Carnival, which is Awesome (in a sleepless sort of way).

As far as safety is concerned, South Africa certainly has issues. There are too many guns loose, & everybody knows someone who has been shot. But most of that's during break-ins & in the cities, mostly Jo'burg. The marinas are cheap & usually have guards, so they're safe. We toured all over in our Audi sedan with our 2 daughters in the back seat for a year & had no safety issues at all.

And when we cross the Indian again (for the 3rd time) we'll again head down to South Africa. The latitudes aren't as high (35 to round the Cape), the seasons are longer (you get an extra summer), the winds are behind you all the way (unlike the Red Sea & Med), & you can stop in Chagos & Maldives (paradises that you don't really have time for when going to the Med).

But the kicker is that, while you're brushing the edge of pirate areas going from Chagos to Madagascar, you can do it at a TIME when they're not there. If you look at the Piracy Map, you'll notice that there have been no attacks in the area just north of Madagascar from the end of May to about Sept. That's because it's too rough for their open boats - but not for us cruisers.
We hear the waters are really hectic around Cape Of Good Hope...... Strange thing is we sail it all the time as we spend most of out time between Simonstown and Cape Town. Yes, we have hit it wrong once or twice and in conditions where even my local yachtsman pals have said we should not have been off the point in those conditions, but I can honestly tell you that even in these conditions it is perfectly safe as long as one is vigilant at the helm.
Most times though, we sail around there in very nice waters.
My biggest fear, is that we often land up in blinding mist and have to dodge masses and masses of crayfish net ropes that float a good 50 meters or so just under the surface of the water. We had to dodge one just 2 weeks ago which I was surprised to have not got caught up in one of my props.
If I could offer any advice to anyone contemplating a choice between pirate infested waters verses rounding the Cape - do yourself a huge favour and ROUND THE CAPE.
Stop over at places like SimonsTown and Cape Town - rent a car - the place is REALLY safe (just stay out of the 'down and out areas' where you could have have problems. We hear so often of visitors by yacht who are absolutely delighted to have come around the point and visit Cape Town. Cat owners will find a brilliant visit to the shallow waters further up the west coast viz Saldhana Bay and Langebaan and drop anchor at KraalBay.
Sadly though, Marina costs are becoming a premium in Cape Town, so much more affordable in Simons Town at the False Bay Yacht Club.
Attached are some photos I took with my iPhone as we rounded Cape Point about 2 weeks ago.
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Old 29-05-2011, 16:41   #80
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Re: Piracy - Reality vs Perception

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Originally Posted by Jon Hacking View Post
There was some debate here on going around the Cape of Good Hope. I think the Blue Water Rally (or someone) has been spreading misinformation. It's actually pretty easy, although you have to watch the weather.

The normal arrival is from NW Madagascar via Mozambique in Oct-Nov, but some boats do come around the bottom of Madagascar.

Richards Bay, 80nm N of Durban, is your first port. We stayed there 2 full years, touring greater southern Africa by land. The leg from Durban down to East London (250nm) is the only difficult one, as there are no safe stops in between. You just have to make sure there are no fronts coming up from Cape Town. You're being shot down the coast by the Agulhas Current, and you don't want to get in a wind-against-current situation.

After that, you can pretty much day-sail it if you want, as there are several safe ports, although some boats get windows that let them go all the way from Durban to Cape Town in one shot. (IMHO, this bypasses some great cruising grounds)

Most boats leave Cape Town early in the year, bound for St Helena & then Brazil, with a possible stop in Ascension. If you leave early enough, you can get to Brazil in time for Carnival, which is Awesome (in a sleepless sort of way).

As far as safety is concerned, South Africa certainly has issues. There are too many guns loose, & everybody knows someone who has been shot. But most of that's during break-ins & in the cities, mostly Jo'burg. The marinas are cheap & usually have guards, so they're safe. We toured all over in our Audi sedan with our 2 daughters in the back seat for a year & had no safety issues at all.

And when we cross the Indian again (for the 3rd time) we'll again head down to South Africa. The latitudes aren't as high (35 to round the Cape), the seasons are longer (you get an extra summer), the winds are behind you all the way (unlike the Red Sea & Med), & you can stop in Chagos & Maldives (paradises that you don't really have time for when going to the Med).

But the kicker is that, while you're brushing the edge of pirate areas going from Chagos to Madagascar, you can do it at a TIME when they're not there. If you look at the Piracy Map, you'll notice that there have been no attacks in the area just north of Madagascar from the end of May to about Sept. That's because it's too rough for their open boats - but not for us cruisers.
please keep this information to your self and other world cruisers,mada and e africa are the last undiscovered cruising grounds...............
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Old 29-05-2011, 16:45   #81
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Re: Piracy - Reality vs Perception

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We hear the waters are really hectic around Cape Of Good Hope...... Strange thing is we sail it all the time as we spend most of out time between Simonstown and Cape Town. Yes, we have hit it wrong once or twice and in conditions where even my local yachtsman pals have said we should not have been off the point in those conditions, but I can honestly tell you that even in these conditions it is perfectly safe as long as one is vigilant at the helm.
Most times though, we sail around there in very nice waters.
My biggest fear, is that we often land up in blinding mist and have to dodge masses and masses of crayfish net ropes that float a good 50 meters or so just under the surface of the water. We had to dodge one just 2 weeks ago which I was surprised to have not got caught up in one of my props.
If I could offer any advice to anyone contemplating a choice between pirate infested waters verses rounding the Cape - do yourself a huge favour and ROUND THE CAPE.
Stop over at places like SimonsTown and Cape Town - rent a car - the place is REALLY safe (just stay out of the 'down and out areas' where you could have have problems. We hear so often of visitors by yacht who are absolutely delighted to have come around the point and visit Cape Town. Cat owners will find a brilliant visit to the shallow waters further up the west coast viz Saldhana Bay and Langebaan and drop anchor at KraalBay.
Sadly though, Marina costs are becoming a premium in Cape Town, so much more affordable in Simons Town at the False Bay Yacht Club.
Attached are some photos I took with my iPhone as we rounded Cape Point about 2 weeks ago.
as i said to jon please don't advertise how wonderful the sailing is in the indian ocean..........read the book "paradise lost" then think carefully about what you post.........
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Old 29-05-2011, 16:51   #82
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Originally Posted by atoll

as i said to jon please don't advertise how wonderful the sailing is in the indian ocean..........read the book "paradise lost" then think carefully about what you post.........
..... Will certainly get the book .....
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Old 29-05-2011, 17:02   #83
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Re: Piracy - Reality vs Perception

one thing ive noticed over the last 25 years of cruising,on nearly 3 circumnavigations,once a place gets popular,and is deemed "safe",prices go up,berths become scarce,plus 3rd world customs want their cut.........paradise lost...we charge 50-100 euros a night for rooms at our hotel in the comores these days now it is on the "tourist route"
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Old 29-05-2011, 20:03   #84
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Re: Piracy - Reality vs Perception

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...Deciding which boats to sink is easy - the pirates are going to have new fast boats with too many crew to be fishermen. Fishermen have to make a living so their boats are older, slower, and manned with only enough crew to get the job done. Further, pirate craft will have boarding ladders and armed crew - likely with radio communications, and they won't be fishing but chasing around. A half hour's briefing on what a local fishing boat looks like versus a local pirate boat is likely the only instruction needed...
Wrong. I've repeated this several times on this (& other) threads, & I'm not sure why folks don't get it.

It's virtually impossible to tell a fishing boat from a pirate.

The pirates are using captured fishing boats as their mother ships. These are usually old, slow boats. They still have much of their gear on board. Somalian pirates don't look like pirates - they look like people! They don't wear their guns all the time. They look like a fishing boat going to or from their fishing grounds.

If you look at the Piracy Map, you'll see that many attacks are made along the corridor that the multinational fleet is tightly patroling. These pirate mother-ships HAVE to be visible to the navy for much of the time. If a trained naval officer can't spot a pirate ship when they're looking right at them, what chance do drones or AWACs have?

Yes, we have a political problem in what to do with the pirates when we catch them. Right now we're giving aid $$ to countries like Kenya & the Seychelles in return for incarcerating what few pirates we catch. But even before that, we have a problem identifying them in the first place. Obviously, if they open fire then we know they're pirates, but the trick is to identify them before that.

There are way too many legitimate fishing boats in that area to chase all of them down. That's why I think the best solution is to search the boats coming out of (or going into) Somalia. If we can keep the guns out of the Indian Ocean, there's no piracy. But we have to physically search the ships. There are few legitimate ships going into or out of Somalia these days, & searching just those ships is MUCH easier than searching all the fishing boats in the Indian Ocean (& also MUCH easier than trying to patrol 2.3 million square miles of ocean).
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Old 29-05-2011, 21:54   #85
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Re: Piracy - Reality vs Perception

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Yes, and the only way Tripoli was deterred was by destroying the land facilities. It's always been the way to stop piracy. You gotta get the queen bees in the hive.
While I have no philosophical objection to this course, it should be carried out with no boots on the ground. The same choppers shooting up suspicious boats could easily sweep down the Somali coasts targeting any big house with a satellite dish, new SUV, new fast boat, or other markers of wealth - likely piracy related. The cost may well be the execution of some kidnapped hostages.
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Old 29-05-2011, 22:17   #86
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Re: Piracy - Reality vs Perception

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Wrong. I've repeated this several times on this (& other) threads, & I'm not sure why folks don't get it.

It's virtually impossible to tell a fishing boat from a pirate.

The pirates are using captured fishing boats as their mother ships. These are usually old, slow boats. They still have much of their gear on board. Somalian pirates don't look like pirates - they look like people! They don't wear their guns all the time. They look like a fishing boat going to or from their fishing grounds.

If you look at the Piracy Map, you'll see that many attacks are made along the corridor that the multinational fleet is tightly patroling. These pirate mother-ships HAVE to be visible to the navy for much of the time. If a trained naval officer can't spot a pirate ship when they're looking right at them, what chance do drones or AWACs have?

Yes, we have a political problem in what to do with the pirates when we catch them. Right now we're giving aid $$ to countries like Kenya & the Seychelles in return for incarcerating what few pirates we catch. But even before that, we have a problem identifying them in the first place. Obviously, if they open fire then we know they're pirates, but the trick is to identify them before that.

There are way too many legitimate fishing boats in that area to chase all of them down. That's why I think the best solution is to search the boats coming out of (or going into) Somalia. If we can keep the guns out of the Indian Ocean, there's no piracy. But we have to physically search the ships. There are few legitimate ships going into or out of Somalia these days, & searching just those ships is MUCH easier than searching all the fishing boats in the Indian Ocean (& also MUCH easier than trying to patrol 2.3 million square miles of ocean).
Jon Hacking s/v Ocelot, I suppose we will just have to disagree. I live in a third world country - the Philippines - and I see fishermen all the time. They are NOT running around in large fast boats with new outboard engines - fishermen cannot catch enough fish to put fuel in these boats. The mother ships are NOT the boats that chase down and board other vessels, this is what the fast boats are for - the mother ships are harmless. It is the behavior and the equipment that give pirates away - a good thing in that there is precious little difference between a Somali pirate and a Somali fisherman - it is likely the same manpower pool. Sink all the little boats where the engines are too big and there is too much crew and most of the commercial problem goes away and the mother ships are useless overhead. I suspect that it is not lack of knowledge which prevents the sinking of pirate vessels - the navy guys probably know exactly who they are; the problem is the ''rules of engagement" by which they are constrained. We could do this much more cost effectively by turning over the operation I described to a civilian contractor and issue them 'letters of Marque and Reprisal' as allowed for in the US Constitution. Pay them per target destroyed as verified by videotape. Profit drives the pirates and profit can drive them away.
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Old 30-05-2011, 06:48   #87
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Re: Piracy - Reality vs Perception

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The same choppers shooting up suspicious boats could easily sweep down the Somali coasts targeting any big house with a satellite dish, new SUV, new fast boat, or other markers of wealth - likely piracy related. The cost may well be the execution of some kidnapped hostages.
!!!, sure why not , it obviously worked in Vietnam. I beleive targetting innocent people is called murder.

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We could do this much more cost effectively by turning over the operation I described to a civilian contractor and issue them 'letters of Marque and Reprisal' as allowed for in the US Constitution. Pay them per target destroyed as verified by videotape. Profit drives the pirates and profit can drive them away.
The act of issuing letters of Margue has long been tantamount to declaring war.

Wake up folks, this problem, short of virtual genocide, cant be fixed militarily. In fact history shows almost no conflict ever is.

This is a law enforcement action not a war. Law enforcement does not condone attacks on inncoents, due process must be followed. The fact that some say gang land hood, shoots down an innocent bystander in LA , does not give law enforcement the right to lay waste to whole blocks of a district in retribution

We play by our rules or we descend to pirarcy ourselves.

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Old 30-05-2011, 09:44   #88
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Re: Piracy - Reality vs Perception

"I beleive targetting innocent people is called murder." - Perhaps, but no one is targeting innocent people, the intent is to target pirates and their facilitators.

"The act of issuing letters of Margue has long been tantamount to declaring war." - Not a problem for me. What are the pirates going to do that they are not already doing?

"This is a law enforcement action not a war." - Exactly wrong. If you think so then I invite you to get a badge and go round up the bad pirates yourself. It is clearly NOT a law enforcement problem because there is no law in the country which is a failed state.

"We play by our rules or we descend to piracy ourselves." - Yes, we hear this fuzzy thinking a lot from people with no effective plan; it just isn't true. Killing pirates is justice, not piracy.
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Old 30-05-2011, 10:06   #89
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Reality?

There was a pretty wild gay pirate song on JJJ this evening. If you did not quite know the lyrics you could have found yourself swaying to something very camp. Reality: most western “pirates” are bent fetishists who like wearing costumes?

Oh, I tried to find a clip of the song but predictably got a lot of hits on The Pirates of Penzance etc., Maybe someone has a link to this new song?
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Old 30-05-2011, 10:36   #90
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Re: Piracy - Reality vs Perception

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... [In] the Philippines I see fishermen all the time. They are NOT running around in large fast boats with new outboard engines - fishermen cannot catch enough fish to put fuel in these boats. The mother ships are NOT the boats that chase down and board other vessels, this is what the fast boats are for - the mother ships are harmless... I suspect that it is not lack of knowledge which prevents the sinking of pirate vessels - the navy guys probably know exactly who they are; the problem is the ''rules of engagement" by which they are constrained....
Bruce, we're in Thailand now & have been in the 3rd world for much of the last 10 years. But I don't think you know how the Somali pirates behave. They don't want to be known, so they go to some lengths to look like fishermen (which isn't hard). They only use their outboard powered open boats for their attacks. They're not charging around in them all the time. Most of the time those boats are dragged behind the mother ship or pulled up on board. They plan their attacks from their mother ship & only then launch their attack boats. And their outboards don't have to be very big.

We've talked to actual pirate victims. This is not hearsay.

If the navy knew which boats were pirate boats, of course they'd do something. Their ROE need updating (IMHO) but there's still lots they could do, like shadowing them & making sure they don't attack anything. There aren't that many pirate boats out there. But the fact of the matter is that even the navy can't tell a pirate from a fishing boat most of the time.

Think about it - if you were a pirate, how would you behave? Fly the Jolly Roger? Of course not. These people might be nasty but they aren't dumb. And hiding in plain sight isn't difficult.
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