Personal Health

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by GordMay

The Hesperian Foundation has the following English titles available for Free download:

Telling that they have no title:

"27 herbs to stick up yer bum - that are better than getting treatment from a Doctor"

[ConradG]

Perhaps that shot of gas up the @ss gave pore kitty a case of quick growing cancer that stopped the bleeding? We will probably never know .... unless...Oh no! Not the knife!!!

Oh and speaking of things for the medical kit, don't forget the .22 shell. Cheapest ultimate pain reliever around...

[osirissail]

Actually there are three books of the books from Hesperian that are important for any worldwide cruiser:
Where There Is No Doctor
Where Women Have No Doctor
Where There Is No Dentist
These are invaluable also because they discuss conditions in 3rd world countries that do not exist in your 1st world country.
- - - - - - -
On the silly side - there is an entry in the first book just for DOJ about a cure involving a hot piece of greased bamboo, some scarlet ibis feathers and tiger termites . . . sure cure for any bum problems.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by mangomuffins

Here is a good example:

Lipitor (one of the most widely prescribed cholesterol drugs worldwide) is derived from Red Yeast Rice.

This is a bad example, and one that is totally false. In my previous life, I was a Ph.D research scientist for Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, the manufacturer of Lipitor*, and worked directly in this area. I can tell you with certainty that Lipitor is NOT derived from Red Yeast Rice. It is not a natural product drug at all.

Lipitor is in a class of drugs called "statins". "Natural medicine doctors" claim that Red Yeast Rice contain compounds that are also statins. This may, or may not, be true. For example, Lovastatin, from Merck Pharmaceuticals, is a statin drug derived from a natural product (but not Red Yeast Rice).

However, there has been no scientifically controlled research with Red Yeast Rice to determine if it contains beneficial statin compounds. It may, or it may not - but that isn't the point here.

Because the natural medicine people are convinced of its statin abilities, they warn against taking this supplement concurrently with Lipitor because of the possible additive effects of statins.

This is good advice if one is not sure, but does not equate to Lipitor being derived from Red Yeast Rice.

Here, I believe that the two have been confused in this manner.

*Warner-Lambert is the real discoverer of Lipitor, and they were acquired by Pfizer shortly after.

Mark

[IceMan]

HP is used to bleach hair and the activator in fibre glass. It burns skin tissue and has been used by terrorists to make bombs.

As far as an activator in fiberglass, it is not the same. MEKP(methyl ethyl ketone perioxide) is the activator and is definately not the same as as perioxide or methyl ethyl keytone.
WD

[colemj]

Since I have blown my cover, indulge me in a bit of a rant...

Scientists, particularly those in the pharmaceutical industry, are often vilified when it is thought that better, cheaper, easier solutions are know and the only reason these aren't available is that the "scientists" and the "industries" are in collusion for profit.

I worked in discovery research in the pharmaceutical industry for 18 years, and I can assure you that this is not the case. Ever.

Yes, we have discovered drugs that could be beneficial to some but decided not to pursue them for profit reasons. Yes, I personally think that diseases like malaria would have much better treatments if there were better profit potentials in them.

And yes, we have systematically studied many, many folklore medicines and did not pursue them into clinical studies.

The reasons for that have nothing to do with profit and all to do with an inability to design a scientifically valid study. This is often difficult for non-scientists to understand, but a scientifically valid study is not easy in the best of circumstances when the endpoints are arbitrary or difficult to measure (Ms. Smith, do you feel better?) and the patient population is comprised of humans who refuse to be treated in a controlled manner (Mister Jones, can you please just stop eating bacon for two weeks?).

Really difficult. Let me tell you about Viagra. Clinical studies require quantitative measurements, and we all know what that measurement is for a drug like Viagra. Well, quantitation required hanging weights on a certain body part and measuring the "performance" before and after dosing. And doing this enough times to be statistically significant. Imagine you are the person being studied and imagine your "performance" with clinical people watching and recording. You can begin to see the difficulty of designing a valid study.

And let's not go into depression medicines. These require finely teasing out what it means to "feel better".

Commercial pharma companies HAVE to operate within scientifically established and controlled parameters. This is a legal requirement, as much as a basic scientific requirement.

The "alternative medicine" companies do not. Most of this industry is composed of heresy and folklore, sprinkled with anecdotal evidence.

The fact is that they do NOT submit their claims or any studies to the scientific community (which includes academic scientists NOT affiliated with the pharma industry), nor do they bother with the trivialities of going through the FDA or any other country's regulatory agency. And believe me, the FDA is NOT on the pharmaceutical companies sides. The "alternative medicine" companies may have a few academic researcher supporters here and there, but not a systemically rigorous and testable hypothesis.

Instead, they skirt the whole issue by operating as "supplement" companies, but not as "nutritional supplements", because that will get them very close to the FDA. They make vague claims, but not specific enough to draw them close to regulation. They have practitioners that operate outside the licensed and regulated establishments.

In other words, they themselves refuse to bring their ideas and claims into basic mainstream science, and prefer to operate as patent medicine sellers of an earlier century.

Could pharma learn something from them? Possibly, but I assure you that most folklore medicines have already been vetted by pharma. For example, I was involved in a large controlled study of St. John's Wort - all the rage a number of years ago for depression. Lots of people spent lots of money on that supplement without any scientifically controlled study. A controlled study uncovered the expected placebo effect and nothing more.

For those of you who need to believe that pharma companies are evil, let me reassure your belief with this: if pharma finds a natural, cheap, readily available product with efficacy, they WILL make a monster profit off of it.

Most folklore medicines are abandoned by pharma because of the complications of designing a controlled study or the complications of identifying an active ingredient and its specific method of action.

Unlike the patent medicine folks, the pharma industry is required by law to identify their active ingredients, describe with data the specific method of action and show statically valid activity through controlled clinical studies. And don't get me started on safety studies - these take years of studies.

And that last paragraph is what you should keep in mind when evaluating alternative medicines and the claims of their practitioners against the pharma industry.

Mark

[ConradG]

I'm deffinately not down on "pharma" at all but there are many things that seem to help in certain situations and have for a long time...Take ginger for an upset stomach, even seasickness...Are there studies that show it works or doesn't? truthfully, I don't want to know so long as it works for me..placebo effect or not...

[mangomuffins]

"This is a bad example, and one that is totally false."

columj,

I stand corrected... more accurate to say (according to Leo Galland MD / Director of the Foundation for Integrated Medicine:
"Red yeast rice contains monacolin K, which is identical with lovastatin, and yields similar clinical and toxicological effects."

Still, my basic premise is correct that there are many natural medicines that are quite safe and effective when administered properly and that anyone considering using them should seek Qualified guidance. This does not include Bob at the health food store.

As for research into the safety and efficacy of my particular area of herbal medicine (Traditional Chinese): There is some research into these herbs being done but at the end of the day, it will probably not be what it should be because there is no patentable product at the end. No money...No research.

Still hard to argue with a couple of thousand years of clinical observation... still goes on today. In fact, I see it everyday

cheers,

mm

[dpex]

Originally Posted by IceMan

As far as an activator in fiberglass, it is not the same. MEKP(methyl ethyl ketone perioxide) is the activator and is definately not the same as as perioxide or methyl ethyl keytone.
WD

What fascinates me about some of the responses to this thread is the almost trenchant refusal to accept that which has occurred before my eyes.

The dog was on death's door. The alt bloke shoved ozone up her bum; twice, plus injected ozone under her skin. I followed that up with huge doses of iron and Vit b.

Now the dog is back normal. How hard is that to accept?

I don't know how or why the treatment worked. But it did. But some of the responses on this thread are almost pharma Luddite....'If it ain't a drug it kaint work.'

Following the info I have read, ad nauseum, late yesterday I felt the onset of a flu/cold/virus; heavens knows. Energy low, temp high, felt like ****. So I did the three apps of Hydrogen Peroxide into my lugholes....over three hours.

Guess what? I awoke this morning with zero bad feelings. Was that placebo? Luck? Unfettered optimism? Or did the HP do what Doctor Whateverhisnameis, who discovered, some 70 years ago that such bugs get into our systems via our ear canals andresponded to HP as he asserted?

Why are you all so trenchantly opposed to a possibility? Especially since the possibility is a low cost, easily adminstered option.

One of you asserted Honey maybe just in remission. Caused by what? Luck? Fate? God's hand? Gimme a break!

I guess, at the end of the day, I don't care what you think. What I do care about is why so many of you think the way you do.

Open minds discover. Closed minds follow the leaders.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by dpex

What fascinates me about some of the responses to this thread is the almost trenchant refusal to accept that which has occurred before my eyes.

It's the Internet. It's full of deluded f#ckwits

The dog was on death's door. The alt bloke shoved ozone up her bum; twice, plus injected ozone under her skin. I followed that up with huge doses of iron and Vit b.

Now the dog is back normal. How hard is that to accept?

I don't know how or why the treatment worked. But it did.

Once again you carefuly skirt around actually claiming the dog is cured .

It was either:-

a) a Misdiagnosis
b) natural progress of a terminal illness (ups & downs, not a straight downward trajectory)
c) a Miracle
d) a cure from the power of special Bum fluid
e) a cure from DOJ sacrificing a goat

Back on planet rational - which seems most likely? If it's b) you have now withdrawn all further medical treatment (no quibble with that if deliberate - but I suspect not ).

But some of the responses on this thread are almost pharma Luddite....'If it ain't a drug it kaint work.'

I don't think anyone here is under any delusions (well, not everyone ) at least not about the limitations of Pharma drugs and conventional medical treatment. Or the fact that profit is involved.

Following the info I have read, ad nauseum, late yesterday I felt the onset of a flu/cold/virus; heavens knows. Energy low, temp high, felt like ****. So I did the three apps of Hydrogen Peroxide into my lugholes....over three hours.

Guess what? I awoke this morning with zero bad feelings. Was that placebo? Luck? Unfettered optimism? Or did the HP do what Doctor Whateverhisnameis, who discovered, some 70 years ago that such bugs get into our systems via our ear canals andresponded to HP as he asserted?

Thanks for the proof - Nobel Prize in the post

Why are you all so trenchantly opposed to a possibility? Especially since the possibility is a low cost, easily adminstered option.

Cos' even from over the internet it's possible to smell a crock of sh#t. Do you want to buy a Bridge?

One of you asserted Honey maybe just in remission. Caused by what? Luck? Fate? God's hand? Gimme a break!

The fact I don't know exactly why Honey is now up and running around does not require me to make up any explanation. It's not mysterious to me, I just don't know. and nor do you.

I guess, at the end of the day, I don't care what you think. What I do care about is why so many of you think the way you do.

Open minds discover. Closed minds follow the leaders.

"Open your mind, but not so much your brain falls out" (ok, I stole that one ).

In my case it's not a closed mind, just knowledge that the exotic potions & lotions (especially from the mysterious east) so favoured by the alternative (to a cure) medicine practioners / peddlers are used by 3rd world peasantry - but that's down to either ignorance, or more usually nowadays a lack of access to medicine that works from either no nearby Doctors / facilities or more usually a good old fashioned lack of cash. Don't mistake using non Pharma medicines as a preference by 3rd world peasantry. It's often a choice between that and f#ck all Trying to spread hocus pocus even only via claims of Canine based "cures" is not something I will leave unchallenged.


Oh, and am also a black belt in shifting crocks of sh#t - so an easy spot

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by dpex

What fascinates me about some of the responses to this thread is the almost trenchant refusal to accept that which has occurred before my eyes.

I went to a magic show once. I saw a rabbit appear out of an empty hat right before my eyes.

Not trying to be rude nor to dispute what you saw but to point out that your observation does not make scientific proof. What you see can be deceiving. The data sample of "one" and the chance of hundreds of possible, alternative explanations eliminates this as "proof" that your treatment worked. Not saying that it didn't, only that the subjective report of one person, observing one, uncontrolled test is not proof.

Originally Posted by dpex

Open minds discover. Closed minds follow the leaders.

Oh please. That line is always the last resort of a weak argument. Everyone doesn't agree with you so they are closed minded and ignoring the truth. I think a number of replies have demonstrated a willingness to consider alternative medicine but also a healthy and justified skepticism.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by dpex

... the almost trenchant refusal to accept that which has occurred before my eyes...

... Why are you all so trenchantly opposed to a possibility? ...

Perhaps you might intend something other than to criticize trenchant thought.

Let me google that for you

Minds which remain too open often end up empty.

[osirissail]

Hey, trenchant is a neat word even when used out of context. But anyway besides all the pharma and folk cures plus placebo effects there is the organic fear of invasion . . .
20 years ago my procto doctor said I needed a "roto-rooter" treatment up my bum. First step was to send the TV camera up there while me and everybody watched the little monitor of what was inside. It felt like they were going to send it all the way until they could see my tonsils from the inside view. But anyway, after the TV procedure was finished I went home and magically my problem down there totally disappeared and has not come back in 20 years. The mere threat of shoving a roto-rooter type device up there convinced my nether region to shape up and stop causing problems.
- - I might suppose the internal parts of the little dog got the same message . . . I would call it organic cure by organ fear.

[Therapy]

I am thinking of a misdiagnosis in the dog.

If you think that a swollen abdomen from internal bleeding was rectified in a day or two from the treatment received, well.........I guess nothing anybody says about the physiology of free blood reabsorbtion in a mammal will mean anything to you.

And your overnight cure from peroxide to the ears is amazing, simply amazing, given you already had a temp, muscle aches etc. To me that means you were well infected unless it was just a 24 hour virus. There are a lot of them out there.

Anyway, I hope you are both well and stay that way.

edit.

PS:

I also must admit to certain bias as I am American, live in the US, and work in the medical field.

America..........where "everybody" wants to come for medical education and advanced treatment modailites. Only those with money get it. It is always about the money, no matter which world you live in.

[justwaiting]

Originally Posted by dpex

What fascinates me about some of the responses to this thread is the almost trenchant refusal to accept that which has occurred before my eyes.

The dog was on death's door. The alt bloke shoved ozone up her bum; twice, plus injected ozone under her skin. I followed that up with huge doses of iron and Vit b.

Now the dog is back normal. How hard is that to accept?

I don't know how or why the treatment worked. But it did. But some of the responses on this thread are almost pharma Luddite....'If it ain't a drug it kaint work.'

Following the info I have read, ad nauseum, late yesterday I felt the onset of a flu/cold/virus; heavens knows. Energy low, temp high, felt like ****. So I did the three apps of Hydrogen Peroxide into my lugholes....over three hours.

Guess what? I awoke this morning with zero bad feelings. Was that placebo? Luck? Unfettered optimism? Or did the HP do what Doctor Whateverhisnameis, who discovered, some 70 years ago that such bugs get into our systems via our ear canals andresponded to HP as he asserted?

Why are you all so trenchantly opposed to a possibility? Especially since the possibility is a low cost, easily adminstered option.

One of you asserted Honey maybe just in remission. Caused by what? Luck? Fate? God's hand? Gimme a break!

I guess, at the end of the day, I don't care what you think. What I do care about is why so many of you think the way you do.

Open minds discover. Closed minds follow the leaders.

In answer to the last sentence of your post. Because some of us have seen people who have believed in some of these waco 'cure'' turn up too late for proper diagnosis and treatment. Also if you knew what you were saying about subcutaneous injections and the diffusion of gasses, liquids and chemicals through the body !!! If you believe that someone's death is low cost it explains your relationship with your dog.

The heading of the thread that you opened was sailing related, some of the posters here have tried to drift the thread to something useful, but you are using this thread to argue with people on a non sailing related issue that is potential dangerous. There are people on this forum that have a personal stake in this issue but then as you say "I don't care what you think" but I do care about people who maybe desperate for solutions.