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Old 30-01-2016, 03:08   #46
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

I have never said or heard the words "Pilot in Charge", he/she is there purely for the local knowledge they have of the area, and to "work with the Shipís Master, or Officer of the Watch, to ensure a safe passage is achieved."

https://www.amsa.gov.au/navigation/s...tage/index.asp

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A marine pilot is a mariner with local knowledge and expertise in handling large ships through dangerous or congested waters. The pilotís role is to work with the Shipís Master, or Officer of the Watch, to ensure a safe passage is achieved.


Pilotage is mainly used in ports and sometimes for coastal voyages. Pilots join a vessel for part of the voyage, usually arriving and departing the vessel by launch or helicopter.


At no time does the pilotís authority exceed that of the Shipís Master. At all times a ship is under the command of its Master, an experienced and highly trained seafarer. The Master is accountable for the navigation and management of the vessel; however it is a condition of a coastal pilotís licence for a pilot to give the Master information and advice to assist the Master and the vesselís navigating officers to make safe passage through the pilotage area.
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Old 30-01-2016, 03:39   #47
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Originally Posted by IslandHopper View Post
I have never said or heard the words "Pilot in Charge", he/she is there purely for the local knowledge they have of the area, and to "work with the Shipís Master, or Officer of the Watch, to ensure a safe passage is achieved."

https://www.amsa.gov.au/navigation/s...tage/index.asp
I presume its the same for Port operations then is it?
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Old 30-01-2016, 03:43   #48
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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I presume its the same for Port operations then is it?
Yep, that's correct
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Old 30-01-2016, 03:43   #49
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

ok to set this into correlation:
i have only once witnessed a pilots request(/advise/whatever) rejected and the fact that we did was noted in the log along with the reason

those guys do know their buisness.
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Old 30-01-2016, 14:47   #50
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

Ha, rc. Saw the captain politely ask a pilot to please sit very quietly in the corner of the bridge and say nothing while berthing. This was a british ship in an Aussie port. The pilot was making a right hash of it all. The master was an ex coaster skipper and a very good shiphandler, unlike many deep sea masters I sailed with.

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Old 31-01-2016, 00:04   #51
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Ha, rc. Saw the captain politely ask a pilot to please sit very quietly in the corner of the bridge and say nothing while berthing. This was a british ship in an Aussie port. The pilot was making a right hash of it all. The master was an ex coaster skipper and a very good shiphandler, unlike many deep sea masters I sailed with.

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Ouch. I was thinking of you in relation to this post. 😂

How does the 'ports' differ to costal in regards to pilotage? I notice, at least here in Tasmania, the use of pilots are governed by legislation. Can a Master still reject the pilots control?


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Old 31-01-2016, 00:20   #52
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Ouch. I was thinking of you in relation to this post. ��

How does the 'ports' differ to costal in regards to pilotage? I notice, at least here in Tasmania, the use of pilots are governed by legislation. Can a Master still reject the pilots control?


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Of course he can, if I believe the advice or instructions he is giving are going to place the vessel in danger I can even have him removed and request a replacement
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Old 31-01-2016, 01:45   #53
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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How does the 'ports' differ to costal in regards to pilotage? I notice, at least here in Tasmania, the use of pilots are governed by legislation.
don't want to nitpick but the use of pilots is governed by legislation about everywhere in the world.
the most extreme examples are Suez, Panama and the Northsea-Baltic Channel.
the last one provides a helmsmann along with the pilot (not optional) while in Suez we just had a bunch of people on board that we told to sit in the mess and watch a few movies.
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Old 31-01-2016, 03:40   #54
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

As I understand it down here the liability still rests with the master, so does ultimate control. But saying that, it's a pretty brave (or stupid) master who disregards pilot advice, kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't...

I think USA laws are different, with pilots taking more of the liability.

Certainly as a cadet I watched the captain carefully, if he countered a pilots orders I would follow the captains command.
A very interesting example is the mikhail lermontov out of picton. Collosal pilot FU. As a side note I sailed with that pilot many years later on a small coaster...

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Old 31-01-2016, 15:19   #55
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Originally Posted by Snowpetrel View Post
As I understand it down here the liability still rests with the master, so does ultimate control. But saying that, it's a pretty brave (or stupid) master who disregards pilot advice, kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't...

I think USA laws are different, with pilots taking more of the liability.

Certainly as a cadet I watched the captain carefully, if he countered a pilots orders I would follow the captains command.
A very interesting example is the mikhail lermontov out of picton. Collosal pilot FU. As a side note I sailed with that pilot many years later on a small coaster...

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Sometimes you just have to let them know who is the boss, not saying they are incompetent or anything, just that like most of us these days a lot of them are running to tight schedules and are prone to taking the odd shortcut here and there. I could give you a good example of an instance when entering into Port Philip Bay one night with a POB where I countered the "advice" of the Pilot not once but twice, but it would take to long here. Suffice to say, him running behind on his schedule is no reason to expect others to take shortcuts to make up his time, It was a rather frosty departure when he left the vessel, but my crew and I slept well that night.

Off topic, are you still lecturing at the AMC, the last time I was there was 2004 and I think you where doing Radar at the time? I always remember the "missile attacks" lol
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Old 31-01-2016, 15:37   #56
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

Ha, and those pesky submarine's if you forgot to reduce the sea clutter after a squall.. no, I'm down in Hobart at STT.

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Old 31-01-2016, 16:03   #57
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Ha, and those pesky submarine's if you forgot to reduce the sea clutter after a squall.. no, I'm down in Hobart at STT.

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Ah yes the subs, I forgot about those lol.... anyhow, good to see your still in the game
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Old 01-02-2016, 11:54   #58
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

So, again, if we take this back to the original topic. We know the anchorage in Grand Cayman has been an issue as long as I can remember and worse now that the cruise ships are bigger and there are more of them. There is a sliver of sand for the ships and mega yachts to anchor on. If directed to anchor in a particular place to stay out of the way of commercial traffic, most of us agree that we would follow that advise unless we knew for fact how little room it afforded and possibility of doing environmental damage as we are most concerned with whether it is a safe place to drop anchor.

Without getting into local politics and the fight between the far right accommodating more of the larger cruise ships and those who are on the far left of environmental concerns who will use the most visible target in the media to bring light to the issue. I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is the professional mariners who will be used as a scape goat through the media with a lynch mob bulls-eye on their forehead for doing what they were told to do by someone in authority in a foreign country. Caveat below from the cruise antagonists point of view.

: cayman islands : Cruise Law News

Even in this case, the first order of the master is to ensure he is anchoring in a place that he feels is safe based upon the depths, proximity to other vessels and fairways, and prevailing conditions. The environmental impact of that decision is normally left to local knowledge, especially when forced to find a suitable anchorage and weigh your job against the evils. If you have a box to anchor in, it is occupied and millions of revenue is at stake, everyone will try and find a way as the Captain is pressured by both the company and the island. Problem being is much of that help is held harmless...

If the boat and master are being used as a high profile media pawn in a local dispute on building the new pier, then I am going to be the first to defend them. I have very mixed feelings about the new pier, so not taking a side in that battle. I am also not siding with every mariner who has done damage to Soto's Reef. Let all the facts come out before pointing fingers, we may have had a different view of Capt Hazelwood today - Maybe???

From the average cruisers point of view (That is the forum and viewpoint we should take), recreational boats are the lowest in the pecking order and if told to do something by someone in known authority, especially in a foreign country with the yellow flag flying, we would be hard pressed to question that order. You have two choices, comply or leave and go somewhere else. If told to drop anchor at a specific place that passes all the other tests for the safety of my vessel and crew, unless I was absolutely sure what I was anchoring over, I would heed to it as would most everyone else.

For you further reading:

Grand Cayman Port Regulations & Laws


Information on the new port they are trying to build from the protagonist point of view. Cayman's Port Cayman's Future


What the anchorage looks like these days.

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