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Old 29-01-2016, 09:42   #16
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Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Originally Posted by Macblaze View Post
. . . . an acre is a completely nonsensical unit of measurement to me. . . .

Of course it's non-sensical to you, you are a sailor not a farmer. An acre was originally the area a pair of oxen could typically plow in a day. It may have been a single ox or horses, I forget and don't want to look up.
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Old 29-01-2016, 09:43   #17
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

That poor reef has been taking a beating for years. I was in Grand Cayman in 1984 when the Rhapsody drove up on it and a couple months later on a hot June night soon after the mosquito plane passed by the horn blows of finally getting her free. The problem is the anchorage runs right up to the reef and it has taken a beating daily until 2007 when they added the ban and made the anchorage smaller, and as recently as 2014 when the Carnival Magic made the headlines when she anchored out of the anchorage on the reef.

It is a quid pro quo as it is either give them a place to anchor or loose the port of call.

As far as stabilizing in place, the cruise ships argue that it uses as much fuel as being at sea and may opt to skip GC if they can't fully anchor in place.
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Old 29-01-2016, 09:53   #18
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

Lawyer: "Who else can we blame?"

Concensus: "Port Authority".

I'm sorry, but I think this is total BS.

I wasn't there, so this is just speculation, but I highly doubt the Port Authority advised the:

1. Lat and Lon with 3 decimal places to drop the hook.

2. What type of anchor to use.

3. Exact number of feet scope to use.

The captain is ultimately responsible for the vessel and any damage done by it, whether intentional or otherwise.

When the vessel called in, they were probably told something very general like "stay to the west of Hanlin's point" or some such.

This does not absolve the captain of responsibility to assure they anchor appropriatetly, ie. not on submerged cables, not within the swing radius of another boat, and not on top of a coral reef, etc.

The captain should honourably accept blame for the blunder.

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Old 29-01-2016, 10:44   #19
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

Right on bro.
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Old 29-01-2016, 10:50   #20
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

Being cruisers, I suggest that all of us have done some coral destruction, probably a lot more than we know or want to admit.. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!
Last I heard the Cayman's require you to only anchor in their specified locations... no longer?
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Old 29-01-2016, 10:56   #21
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Being cruisers, I suggest that all of us have done some coral destruction, probably a lot more than we know or want to admit.. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!
Last I heard the Cayman's require you to only anchor in their specified locations... no longer?
But what if you live in a bullet proof glass house?
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Old 29-01-2016, 10:58   #22
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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But what if you live in a bullet proof glass house?
You must own a Westsail!
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Old 29-01-2016, 10:59   #23
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Ii want one of these. And I would so add "Fetch" to the list...

When the holding tank gets full, tell it to "GO POTTY !
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Old 29-01-2016, 11:02   #24
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Of course it's non-sensical to you, you are a sailor not a farmer. An acre was originally the area a pair of oxen could typically plow in a day. It may have been a single ox or horses, I forget and don't want to look up.
Thought it was two wives, rather than oxen. Oxen have power but are dreadfully slow moving. Horses much faster but not so great on the heavy stuff.
Two oxen for cutting new field or opening up an abandoned field. Horses for plowing or tilling already cut soils(fallow fields). BTDT in Croatia back in early 70s.
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Old 29-01-2016, 11:04   #25
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

Let's be thankful that Allen's chain wasn't the second picture in the photo gallery ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=huge...c5AfkQ_AUIBygC
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Old 29-01-2016, 11:06   #26
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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You must own a Westsail!
Yup, did for many decades. A 43 foot ketch. Great for crunching bergie bits, thumping across reefs,and getting rammed by various fishing boats. Built like the proverbial brick s*&t house and about as fast sometimes.
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Old 29-01-2016, 11:06   #27
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
When the holding tank gets full, tell it to "GO POTTY !
ROTFL!
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Old 29-01-2016, 11:18   #28
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Being cruisers, I suggest that all of us have done some coral destruction, probably a lot more than we know or want to admit.. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!
Last I heard the Cayman's require you to only anchor in their specified locations... no longer?
I tend to agree, when you get into a crowded anchorage and it is the only game in town, you will try and make it work. The thing about anchors is they have a tendency of not staying where you originally set them.
This particular anchorage is very small considering the number and size of the ships that need to use it. There is not a lot of sand between that side of the island and the wall.

That in no way absolves them or the rest of us for any damage we happen to do whether purposefully or not. It just does not, in my opinion, warrant the nightly news beating up on a particular person or company the way they have recently when there are many more examples of willful environmental damage occurring all over the place that is having a far greater impact on the coral than that of an errant anchor or two.

Make a mistake, do damage, get caught, restore it or pay the fine, and go home. Does anyone really think that Paul Allen, his Captain, or any of the crew willfully dropped their anchor on Soto's reef or any other?
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Old 29-01-2016, 11:31   #29
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Lawyer: "Who else can we blame?"

Concensus: "Port Authority".

I'm sorry, but I think this is total BS.

I wasn't there, so this is just speculation, but I highly doubt the Port Authority advised the:

1. Lat and Lon with 3 decimal places to drop the hook.

2. What type of anchor to use.

3. Exact number of feet scope to use.

The captain is ultimately responsible for the vessel and any damage done by it, whether intentional or otherwise.

When the vessel called in, they were probably told something very general like "stay to the west of Hanlin's point" or some such.

This does not absolve the captain of responsibility to assure they anchor appropriatetly, ie. not on submerged cables, not within the swing radius of another boat, and not on top of a coral reef, etc.

The captain should honourably accept blame for the blunder.

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In August 2014 the Carnival Magic dropped her anchor outside of Georgetown right where the local pilot from Bodden Shipping Agency said to. Who is at fault? The Caymans are like a small town. The names that complain about specific things are interestingly related to the business they do...

If you can't trust a paid pilot to get you into port, who can you trust?
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Old 29-01-2016, 11:32   #30
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Re: Paul Allen's yacht allegedly destroys acres of coral

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Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
Apparently folks here have little contact with math or life on the hook.

One Acre = 43,560 square feet

Area of a circle = PI (3.1416)*radius squared

The boat is accused of damaging 14,000 square feet so the radius of their swing (if they did a full circle) is 66 feet, or maybe they had 132 feet of chain out and swung in a half circle. The 14,000 sq feet number comes from a Seattle newspaper which I trust much more when talking about Paul Allen (home boy) and boats (they have a few there) than I do CNN.

That seems like a pretty normal scope (4:1 for all chain) in 16 or 32 feet of water.

The article says the boat was anchored where directed by the Port Authority. It sounds like they put out a "normal" amount of chain and swung a little. That is life on the hook - what do the critics here the captain of the boat should have done and where should he have anchored?
Regardless of where the captain "is directed to anchor" the ultimate responsibility rests with him. It is up to the captain of a vessel to determine what is safe, responsible etc. Surely you understand that?
"Life on the hook" does not relieve one of responsibility.
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