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Old 04-11-2013, 08:14   #46
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Re: One day worth of insurance for a haulout

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That's a lot different then living on the dole expecting others to pay your way. So for me Freedom is pulling my own weight, not at someone elses expense.
Im being nice here, but there are many hardworking people, who by the application of poor wages, or periods of unemployment, find they simply cannot cover their "golden years", hence they rely on social services to ensure they can at least remain living.

What would you do to those that cannot afford retirement, "Solent Green" ???.

Freedom is a nebulous concept , whose definition is not at all agreed on. With Freedom also comes social responsibility too.

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Old 04-11-2013, 08:16   #47
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Re: One day worth of insurance for a haulout

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
That's also what I do, but it's not at all of "no concern to me" since my large no claims discount, the result of 20 years of no claims, is at stake. Still, it's a relatively minor issue to me compared to the case of a person with limited means and no comprehensive. He shouldn't be forced to buy comprehensive, which unlike liability is not so affordable for many people, because some people don't bother to have any insurance at all.

Liability, probably, should be required, like it is for cars.
Actually I don't agree, in the Uk and elsewhere its actually as cheap to get comprehensive insurance in my experience. 3rd party liability only insurance is not commonly available , especially on cheaper premiums.

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Old 04-11-2013, 08:39   #48
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Re: One day worth of insurance for a haulout

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Im being nice here, but there are many hardworking people, who by the application of poor wages, or periods of unemployment, find they simply cannot cover their "golden years", hence they rely on social services to ensure they can at least remain living.

What would you do to those that cannot afford retirement, "Solent Green" ???.

Freedom is a nebulous concept , whose definition is not at all agreed on. With Freedom also comes social responsibility too.

DAve
Again...I'm not saying what you are implying. I know many people hit hard times. I have also. Most of the time I'm a blue collar guy. But there are those that find it easier to refuse work and not aspire to anything. And trust me...no one is starving in the US as some would think. But we're drifting off topic here. We all agree that all of us should carry Insurance for the sake of our fellow boaters if an accident arises.
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:51   #49
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Re: One day worth of insurance for a haulout

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We all agree that all of us should carry Insurance for the sake of our fellow boaters if an accident arises.
I personally never carry insurance because of my fellow boaters, I carry insurance , because I want to ensure that my boat can be repaired and reused , irrespective of what happens or the insurance status of an unknown future person. I carry third party as a function of that.

I mean there are whole hosts of areas in life where I don't have "liability" insurance.

Surely one carries insurance primary for ones own protection , not others
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:55   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Actually I don't agree, in the Uk and elsewhere its actually as cheap to get comprehensive insurance in my experience. 3rd party liability only insurance is not commonly available , especially on cheaper premiums.

Dave
I have found insurance in the UK to be incredibly cheap and cant imagine why anyone there would do without. But it is otherwise in the US and some other places. Why? Don't ask me. Maybe the legal system.
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:57   #51
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Re: One day worth of insurance for a haulout

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I have found insurance in the UK to be incredibly cheap and cant imagine why anyone there would do without. But it is otherwise in the US and some other places. Why? Don't ask me. Maybe the legal system.
that could be it.

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Old 04-11-2013, 09:06   #52
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I personally never carry insurance because of my fellow boaters, I carry insurance , because I want to ensure that my boat can be repaired and reused , irrespective of what happens or the insurance status of an unknown future person. I carry third party as a function of that.

I mean there are whole hosts of areas in life where I don't have "liability" insurance.

Surely one carries insurance primary for ones own protection , not others
Dave
I know what Celestial Sailor is saying and I agree with him. The first reason to carry insurance is to be sure you can pay for your own mistakes and don't screw someone. If you can afford to insure your own boat, too, that's great, of course. I carry only liability insurance on my car, because the cost of comprehensive where I drive is ridiculous, probably 20% of the car's value a year. So I self-insure my own property, but maintain insurance for the benefit of other people I might accidentally harm. I am not poor and could probably pay for most cars I might destroy, but what if, God forbid, someone is injured? I guess I'm protecting my assets, too, but that's not the main idea. When I had no assets, I also always, always had liability insurance.
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:04   #53
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Re: One day worth of insurance for a haulout

I see 2 issues here. I think that most agree that we should bear responsibility for any damage we cause.

The second issue is how to engage in civilized debate. One of the things I enjoy most at CF is the respect shown for other posters. How many of us left other Forums because of rudeness?

I think we can discuss ideas without insults or name calling. If life afloat has not taught us that, we might belong back in the cutthroat, land based, rat race.
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Old 04-11-2013, 10:16   #54
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I don't carry personal liability insurance except associated with my car ( legally required ) and my house. That's it. I don't see this insistence on insurance for everything.

After all if an accident occurs ( in any walk of life ) I do not except in all cases there is insurance cover. After all its an accident. If I have something that I dont want damaged , because I can't afford its repair or replacement then I insure it

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Old 04-11-2013, 11:13   #55
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Re: One day worth of insurance for a haulout

One of these days on one of these insurance threads there's going to be a story where 1 self insured (code for no insurance) guy hits some other self insured boater. The guy that was responsible is going to no longer going to be able to cruise on because they can not repair their boat. And the poor guy on the receiving end also can not repair his boat because he didn't have the money, and the other guy with hit him has no money either to collect against.

This is why so of us say you should at least have liability insurance. It is because your actions shouldn't ruin other peoples dreams.
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Old 04-11-2013, 11:57   #56
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Re: One day worth of insurance for a haulout

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Originally Posted by Bestathook View Post
I see 2 issues here. I think that most agree that we should bear responsibility for any damage we cause.

The second issue is how to engage in civilized debate. One of the things I enjoy most at CF is the respect shown for other posters. How many of us left other Forums because of rudeness?

I think we can discuss ideas without insults or name calling. If life afloat has not taught us that, we might belong back in the cutthroat, land based, rat race.
Actually, I thought we were being civil. Surely I've seen worst. All kinds of personalities here. It's what make this forum interesting for me. I've only ever put 2 people on "ignore" here. It wasn't for civility reasons but for major thread drifting.
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Old 04-11-2013, 13:23   #57
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Old 04-11-2013, 19:05   #58
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Well I'm not going to get into what you should or shouldn't do.

I do find it laughable that people are using insurance companies in the same sentences as moral. Are we talking about the same companies that have huge profit margins for themselves? The same ones that when the chips are down and your kicked in the face they say oh sorry mate you should have read the revised clause we put on your policy. Turns out your not covered for flood insurance. But we were happy to take your money for flood insurance for years.
Or sorry mate the fellow was at fault so we are not covering his claim and you will have to collect from your own insurance.
Insurance companies pay it seems when its in their interest (return clients marketing bad publicity costs of not paying etc) but run when it's not. Seen it happen a lot. Been left high and dry a few times from being insured. Other times I've been paid hassle free. Well hassle free less deductible (excess) loss of no claims bonus increased rates etc. thanks whosever hit my car and ran. Describes as an elderly couple in a Mercedes via note left too bad the witness got the plate number wrong police too lazy to do their job. Second time it happened I had to find the culprit too despite a description and known it was a taxi the company and time. Anyway I digress.

As far as it being likened to betting. Of corse it is, insurance companies are business they are not morality banks and they are betting in their favor. Otherwise they would not have massive profits they would go bankrupt.

They establish premiums based in this very fact and in its simplest form the amount of premium they charge is proportionate to the risk they take of actually having to make a payout to you not necessarily the risk of something happening . The higher the premium the higher the risk. You can literally insure anything from legs, hands cars walking downtown anything if you are willing to pay the premium and terms they set. There is safety in numbers because this helps the insurance company have a better model of the risk and therefore with more payments made into the pool a more marketable premium can be pushed.

So I wonder how many people that paid for insurance for their moral obligation would pick up the shortfall if their insurance said were not going to payout such and such cause we feel they are at fault (because the person can't afford a lawyer to fight with the insurance company over it).

That's the main reason I carry insurance so that my insurance company can fight with another insurance company because I don't have the desire to spend my life in court trying to get an insurance company to pay what they should. I'm speaking from experience here where 3 years in court with gross negligence from a department store that nearly cost me my hearing, perforated my eardrum and significant pain, witnesses photos and lots of clear cut evidence resulted in $1500 payout. Yes I have not forgotten an zeros. If I had insurance for walking in a department store I'd likely have a massive settlement. Or if it would have been a higher profile store like woolies where I could have had more eager aggressive lawyers working on it.

Because I healed up good and had just immigrated so only worked a few contract jobs. I also could only peruse it with a law firm that had no upfront fees.

Yeah insurance companies will not be my moral compass thank you. I do have insurance but that's primarily to protect me. If an accident you are involved in results in someone's child's death and insurance pays out I don't think the parents will feel gratified and if they infamously rotted the parents on payout paying less than they should etc. will you pick up the short fall? Is money the most important thing here? I won't rely on insurance to give me a moral pass on my obligations just monetary ones.

Like has been said before though you have to assess the risk and I don't think anyone can judge others decisions if its not breaking a law in this regard. Otherwise they need to be insured against dropping a glass jar I. The grocery store that could cause shrapnel to blind a baby in the pram beside you. Or tripping and falling on the elderly lady close by causing her to break a hip etc. there's all kinds of what if's and insurance has the ones you want to buy into as a calculated risk. So if the premiums only $125 a year you can be sure the risk is low. If your premium is more like $500 for less coverage and even less risk you can be sure you are in Australia.
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