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Old 18-01-2012, 15:40   #61
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Ello, Ello... MultixMono,PowerxSail... don't bite mate..
Its not a multi v Mono or a power v sail debate.

What it is is a responsible actions v iresponsible , seamanlike behaviour v unseamanlike debate.

How can waiting for a kicking, when you have the means at hand to avoid it, be seen as responsible or seamanlike?
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Old 18-01-2012, 15:45   #62
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

A story. I once helped friends do an offshore delivery and then sail their new boat down to Mexico. One day I was to come off watch a couple hours before we rounded Pt. Conception, but my friend had heard such horror stories about Conception he asked me to stay on deck until the rounding. At that point the winds were so light we were motorsailing.

As soon as we rounded the point I went below for some badly needed slumber, but I was asleep no more than half an hour when my friend woke me up and informed me that the wind had come up and that he wanted my help shortening sail. This surprised me because we were still motorsailing, but I got up anyway because the boat's motion seemed squirrely.

As soon as I stepped into the cockpit I could see what the problem was. "Let's try this," I suggested before crossing over to to the helm and shutting off the engine. The boat settled immediately, and it became clear that we had the perfect amount of sail up for the wind.

So I went back to bed.
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Old 18-01-2012, 15:51   #63
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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I know that you wont start your engine to avoid bad weather.
That says all I need to know.
You don't know that, I never said that!

And you don't know forum etiquette either. Challenge the point of view by all means. Being grumpy, rude and personal is just being grumpy rude and not on.

Bye.
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Old 18-01-2012, 15:55   #64
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
A story. I once helped friends do an offshore delivery and then sail their new boat down to Mexico. One day I was to come off watch a couple hours before we rounded Pt. Conception, but my friend had heard such horror stories about Conception he asked me to stay on deck until the rounding. At that point the winds were so light we were motorsailing.

As soon as we rounded the point I went below for some badly needed slumber, but I was asleep no more than half an hour when my friend woke me up and informed me that the wind had come up and that he wanted my help shortening sail. This surprised me because we were still motorsailing, but I got up anyway because the boat's motion seemed squirrely.

As soon as I stepped into the cockpit I could see what the problem was. "Let's try this," I suggested before crossing over to to the helm and shutting off the engine. The boat settled immediately, and it became clear that we had the perfect amount of sail up for the wind.

So I went back to bed.

I'm hardly a crusty sailor with a peg leg, but it's weird how there are some people who just don't seem to have a sense of what's going on underway. Not in anyway trying to say I've got it all figured out, but there's a missing aptitude I see in a lot of people that really makes me wonder why they're out there at all.
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Old 18-01-2012, 15:55   #65
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pirate Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

Some folks are like that... others sometimes don't have a choice...
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Old 18-01-2012, 16:11   #66
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

like a salesman...who knows all the prices,but non of the values...........
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Old 18-01-2012, 16:28   #67
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

"Some people are like slinkies - they serve no real purpose in life, but they always bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs."

I had to comment on this ! After twenty five years working for New York State I just found out how I could have brought a LOT of joy to my life !
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Old 25-01-2012, 03:34   #68
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

From the original post:
Quote:
Guess the question is, is this a preference thing ? A necessity ? I understand the need for engines, my belief was they are mostly used for short distance and manuvering.
I think there is a lot of latitude for different cruising styles, locations, boats, and weather. So there is no simple answer as to engine use. It should rarely be a necessity, as that implies the skipper has got himself in a tight spot, but sometimes one finds oneself in a tight spot and is grateful for the engine. Like a dragging anchor towards a lee shore... at least where there isn't room to set out a second anchor while dragging.

When doing trade winds there is no need for motoring. OTOH if you get caught in a building summertime high (Pacific High, Azores High) then a motor will be invaluable.

Sometimes a boat can be sailed in very light winds (when the seas are down) but often on the ocean it takes a reasonable wind to steady the boat enough to keep the sails from flogging. Friends of mine with a 35' racing boat start their engine when the speed drops below 6kn on the ocean - the wind is so light at that point that it can't hold the boat steady. For my boat the number is less than 4kn on the ocean. So what to do? Either motor or roll around waiting for wind. I will generally motor.

I don't know that I could make a generalization about coastal vs. open ocean: I will sail when I can, motor otherwise, regardless. I am not enough of a purist to be willing lay around on a rolling boat going nowhere if there is an option. Of course the thought that a front will probably follow the calm is further encouragement to move along. Coming up from St Johns to Bermuda, and again from Bermuda to Sandy Hook, I left under sail but spent more time motoring, coming into harbor with nearly empty tanks on flat water the day before bad weather (in both cases). Yes the diesel was expensive. And damn well worth it. (But I can only carry 55 gallons.)

Barring outliers like the Pardeys, for most of us sail vs power isn't so much a choice as a reaction to circumstances, and a boat that does both well is to be valued.
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Old 25-01-2012, 04:13   #69
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

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Originally Posted by CarinaPDX View Post
From the original post:


I think there is a lot of latitude for different cruising styles, locations, boats, and weather. So there is no simple answer as to engine use. It should rarely be a necessity, as that implies the skipper has got himself in a tight spot, but sometimes one finds oneself in a tight spot and is grateful for the engine. Like a dragging anchor towards a lee shore... at least where there isn't room to set out a second anchor while dragging.

When doing trade winds there is no need for motoring. OTOH if you get caught in a building summertime high (Pacific High, Azores High) then a motor will be invaluable.

Sometimes a boat can be sailed in very light winds (when the seas are down) but often on the ocean it takes a reasonable wind to steady the boat enough to keep the sails from flogging. Friends of mine with a 35' racing boat start their engine when the speed drops below 6kn on the ocean - the wind is so light at that point that it can't hold the boat steady. For my boat the number is less than 4kn on the ocean. So what to do? Either motor or roll around waiting for wind. I will generally motor.

I don't know that I could make a generalization about coastal vs. open ocean: I will sail when I can, motor otherwise, regardless. I am not enough of a purist to be willing lay around on a rolling boat going nowhere if there is an option. Of course the thought that a front will probably follow the calm is further encouragement to move along. Coming up from St Johns to Bermuda, and again from Bermuda to Sandy Hook, I left under sail but spent more time motoring, coming into harbor with nearly empty tanks on flat water the day before bad weather (in both cases). Yes the diesel was expensive. And damn well worth it. (But I can only carry 55 gallons.)

Barring outliers like the Pardeys, for most of us sail vs power isn't so much a choice as a reaction to circumstances, and a boat that does both well is to be valued.
Good Post CarinaPDX

Some vessels are exellent motor as well as sailing vessels and why not use any tool you have as a skipper.

Certainly it the clear view and advise of Steve Dashew in his writings and you could say he is the outlier in the opposite direction to the Pardeys.

Use the tools you have to your advantage to ensure safety of your crew.

The ability to motor well is no disadvantage anywhere in the Pacific.

Cheers
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Old 25-01-2012, 06:54   #70
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Originally Posted by conachair

Well, not quite sure I agree with that completely. There's quite a strong argument for saying that if you need to rely on your motor to run away from weather then your boat isn't strong enough and you maybe shouldn't be there in the first place.
No there isn't , avoiding putting ones boat to the test is prudent seamanship . It's rarely the boat that gives up. Attitudes like that get people killed

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Old 25-01-2012, 07:15   #71
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

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No there isn't , avoiding putting ones boat to the test is prudent seamanship . It's rarely the boat that gives up. Attitudes like that get people killed

Dave
I think that's going a bit far. We're all choosing to take on some risk by going to sea at all. We are all putting ourselves and our boat to the test somewhat when we do so, and we choose routes and windows based on our own personal risk tolerance, weighing crew skill and attitude as well as boat capability.

We get better when we push ourselves, and I see nothing wrong with intentionally leaving myself in the path of some heavy weather just for the experience. How heavy is up to my judgement based on crew, vessel, and a lot of other factors.

Some people take great pleasure in being a sailing vessel and will avoid using the engine almost at any cost. They might sometimes increase their risk factor somewhat to get a greater sense of fulfillment. This is their choice and it isn't stupid or even necessarily dangerous.

Some will use their motor to avoid a gale, some won't. More will use it to avoid a storm. Most will use it to avoid a hurricane. Each has the right to set their own limit.
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Old 25-01-2012, 07:39   #72
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

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I think that's going a bit far. We're all choosing to take on some risk by going to sea at all. We are all putting ourselves and our boat to the test somewhat when we do so, and we choose routes and windows based on our own personal risk tolerance, weighing crew skill and attitude as well as boat capability.

We get better when we push ourselves, and I see nothing wrong with intentionally leaving myself in the path of some heavy weather just for the experience. How heavy is up to my judgement based on crew, vessel, and a lot of other factors.

Some people take great pleasure in being a sailing vessel and will avoid using the engine almost at any cost. They might sometimes increase their risk factor somewhat to get a greater sense of fulfillment. This is their choice and it isn't stupid or even necessarily dangerous.

Some will use their motor to avoid a gale, some won't. More will use it to avoid a storm. Most will use it to avoid a hurricane. Each has the right to set their own limit.
I doubt if anyone is really disagreeing here. What is "heavy weather" requires clarification. For many of us a gale is no big deal. I avoid sailing in a gale if I'm in port and not in a hurry, but if one appears on passage it's not big deal -- or even beneficial if I'm on a broad reach and can use the boost. A storm is a different matter, and I doubt that many of us will intentionally allow ourselves to be caught in one, if we have a good way to avoid it. However strong and seaworthy our boats are.

I have intentionally sailed in storms, but I carefully chose the moment -- tired of being bottled up in port waiting for weather, and it was a downwind sail. Calculated risk. But surely no one would ever want to be without maximum options -- including motoring -- to avoid a storm if necessary.
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Old 25-01-2012, 07:45   #73
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

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Good Post CarinaPDX

Some vessels are exellent motor as well as sailing vessels and why not use any tool you have as a skipper.

Certainly it the clear view and advise of Steve Dashew in his writings and you could say he is the outlier in the opposite direction to the Pardeys.

Use the tools you have to your advantage to ensure safety of your crew.

The ability to motor well is no disadvantage anywhere in the Pacific.

Cheers
No disadvantage anywhere, surely.

My present boat performs well motoring and I don't find motoring unpleasant at all. I go to sea for pleasure and not as a test of how far I can go without my engine. On a windless calm day I can make 8.5 knots with the engine barely audible so why not? And a range of over 600 miles. In a hurry I can motor at 10 knots by cranking up the revs a bit. As much as I love to sail, I am delighted to have this alternative option -- who wouldn't be?
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Old 25-01-2012, 15:12   #74
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

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No disadvantage anywhere, surely.

My present boat performs well motoring and I don't find motoring unpleasant at all. I go to sea for pleasure and not as a test of how far I can go without my engine. On a windless calm day I can make 8.5 knots with the engine barely audible so why not? And a range of over 600 miles. In a hurry I can motor at 10 knots by cranking up the revs a bit. As much as I love to sail, I am delighted to have this alternative option -- who wouldn't be?

Absolutely a great option in my view. There are good sailing vessels that can achiewe 10 knots under motor as you indicate.
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Old 25-01-2012, 16:01   #75
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

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No there isn't , avoiding putting ones boat to the test is prudent seamanship . It's rarely the boat that gives up. Attitudes like that get people killed

Dave
Disagree.

The key word in the post was rely

Nothing was said about putting your boat to test. Assuming that your engine will stop working sooner or later and making sure your boat is strong enough to take what might get thrown at you is prudent seamanship. Attitudes like that get people with a tough boat and no great dramas at sea.
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