Oldest European Settlement in US

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by reed1v

Well, Duh, he looked at a map.

My point precisely.

Who drew the map?

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I thought is was pretty well accepted that civilization began in Mesopotamia or maybe Egypt, but Greece was the beginning of a modern form of government?

On edit I believe I have heard Greece refereed to as the birthplace of
"Western" civilization?

Pilot,
The Mesopotamian basin was the cradle of world Civilization, as you stated, and ancient Greece was the birthplace of Western Civilization as early as 5th Century B.C. It wasn't until the 1st Century A.D. that the lascivious Romans became eminent until the late 5th century A.D. when the Germanic tribes overwhelmed Rome and the Empire moved East to become the great Byzantine Empire.

[Kalinka1]

Originally Posted by Seymore

That's what Peter Loveridge says in his A Cruising Guide To Nova Scotia too:

"Canso is the oldest continuously inhabited town in Nova Scotia, officially dating from 1604. There was undoubtedly a regular European fishery for at least 200 years before that--archaeological evidence reveals that Breton and Basque fishermen fished in a number of places in Eastern Canada in the 1300s, long before Columbus and Cabot arrived."

I can't help thinking they must have had charts.

Paper or Electronic

[reed1v]

Some folks,like SailingFarmer, show a real lack of historical knowledge. Vikings routinely sailed down and into the Mediterranean to trade with the various cultures, including the ancient Greeks. That is way longer than taking a trip to America, and going through the Bay of Biscay probably more dangerous. The lapstrake construction made their ships incredibly strong and seaworthy. Ericson's son's settlements along Greenland are well documented.

So, as far as sailing capabilities, the Vikings could and did sail the high seas as well as if not better than later European sailors. The viking ship's design is superb for ocean storms, with reserve buoyancy in both bow and stern sections, extremely low windage, design that allows the boat to ride over waves and exceed hull speeds, and the option to sail, row, or both at the same time gave it maneuverability far exceeding any sailing vessel up till the 19th century. Its long, narrow design along with a center square sail probably gave it a very low center of gravity; making for a real comfy ride. Obviously design by he inhabitants of K-Pak.

[Kalinka1]

Originally Posted by nicholson31

Here is the replica of John Cabots ship the Matthew
To commemorate the 500th anniversary of Cabot's 1497 voyage, a full-size replica of the Matthew was reconstructed at Bristol by the naval architect Colin Mudie and the boat-building company Storms'l Services (later renamed the Bristol Classic Boat Company). Mudie based his design on archaeological data and on late-medieval illustrations of caravels.
Shipwrights began work in February 1994 and it took them two years to complete the $3.8-million project. In 1997, the replica Matthew sailed across the Atlantic to Newfoundland as part of the quincentenial celebrations. After 54 days at sea, it arrived at Bonavista on 24 June 1997, where it was welcomed by Queen Elizabeth II and 30,000 spectators. The Matthew then toured Newfoundland and the eastern seaboard before wintering in Toronto. It returned to Bristol in 1998.

i was part of the crew that sailed it across from Sydney to St. Johns and then Duardene France. Fun trip!

[Island Time O25]

Speaking of ancient civilizations. One of the most fascinating chapters is that of the Minoan civilization whose center was around what is now Santorini/Thera. They were destroyed by a volcanic eruption somewhere between 17c and 14c BCE. They were seagoing people and derived their extreme wealth from maritime trade. It is speculated that the remnants of their people who were able to escape the volcano's destruction had passed on their culture and know-how to the ancestors of Greeks, Phoenicians, etc. and were recorded in many ancient chronicles as the "sea peoples". Their palaces and large houses were centrally heated with under the floor ducts. They also had a version of flushable toilets and running water with conical marble plugs to open and stop the flow. To date their written script has not been deciphered. The level of sophistication of their civilization has not been achieved again until almost 2000 years later in the imperial Rome only to be forgotten again until the more recent times.

One can only imagine how far and how quicker our civilization would have progressed but for that volcano event 3,500 years ago. It is highly likely that given their sophisticated maritime activities that they had ventured beyond the Pillars of Hercules. How far beyond is anyone's guess but at least Azores, Canaries and Cape Verde are the likeliest places for them to have visited.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by reed1v

Some folks,like SailingFarmer, show a real lack of historical knowledge. Vikings routinely sailed down and into the Mediterranean to trade with the various cultures, including the ancient Greeks. That is way longer than taking a trip to America, and going through the Bay of Biscay probably more dangerous. The lapstrake construction made their ships incredibly strong and seaworthy. Ericson's son's settlements along Greenland are well documented.

So, as far as sailing capabilities, the Vikings could and did sail the high seas as well as if not better than later European sailors. The viking ship's design is superb for ocean storms, with reserve buoyancy in both bow and stern sections, extremely low windage, design that allows the boat to ride over waves and exceed hull speeds, and the option to sail, row, or both at the same time gave it maneuverability far exceeding any sailing vessel up till the 19th century. Its long, narrow design along with a center square sail probably gave it a very low center of gravity; making for a real comfy ride. Obviously design by he inhabitants of K-Pak.

I have somewhere "The Voyage of St. Brendan" (?) about a modern reconstruction and ocean crossing sailing of a replica Viking (pre-Viking?) ship. Fascinating read as I recall. My only take on that was that as far as I saw it the modern guys were less comfy as 1) they were used to a much greater level of comfort to begin with and 2) their modern clothing was probably inferior for the job compared to woolen stuff the Vikings (or pre-Viking inhabitants of Ireland) would use at the time.

[sailingfarmer]

I lived in Panama for many years... There are a lot of Chinese there these days.... and when a member of the Ngobe-Bugle indigenous indian tribe stands next to someone from Northern China it is hard to tell them apart... there is no question about the genes once you see them together.... I guess we should have a Chinese/Mongolian/Japanese Columbus Day to be fair.

[JPA Cate]

Or, maybe a day just to honor forgotten ancestors.

Off course, miscegenation is a reality mainly on Brazil. A Brazilian poet says that the best thing Portuguese gave to the world was the half bread ( mulatos) and in fact regarding earlier stages of colonization Portuguese were the only ones that miscegenate themselves with the natives. --Polux
__________________

Not only the Portuguese, but the French, English, and Spanish sailors as well took the "Indian" native women. I do not know if it is true, but I have read that it was the Spanish who introduced what the English called "the Frenchmen's Disease" (syphilis) to Mexico.

Yes, I do not think we would like many of the practices of the early explorers, however, slavery has a long human history, something to remember.

The major problem with archaeology is that most *stuff* that people make and use disappears, and it is mostly, only in the very dry regions and in peat bogs that soft things have survived.. Barbara Weyland Sanford's book "The Mummies of Urumchi" is a fascinating read, and also Google on "Catal-Hyuoc" for the first city, in Turkey.

I agree with the poster above who suggested that humans have traveled extensively for countless aeons, and without leaving a durable record of those travels. Actually, there is a record....Read "Black Eve" by Steven Oppenheimer, about the spread of the human genome over the world. The record of early man's travel is in our DNA.

Ann

[Polux]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Pilot,
The Mesopotamian basin was the cradle of world Civilization, as you stated, and ancient Greece was the birthplace of Western Civilization as early as 5th Century B.C. It wasn't until the 1st Century A.D. that the lascivious Romans became eminent until the late 5th century A.D. when the Germanic tribes overwhelmed Rome and the Empire moved East to become the great Byzantine Empire.

In fact the basis of western culture are Greek/Roman based but in what regards Democracy as a form of government being their legacy i wound say that it is vastly exaggerated.

Some glimpses of it now and then but Democracy was never the general rule. In what regards that Democracy was more common on the German tribes whose leaders were not hereditary and chosen by the warriors.

The Greek/Roman contribute had more to do with a state with a law that was respected by all and enforced, a civil law.

[jmschmidt]

Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

Actually the Headline was "US" as in the United States.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by Polux

In fact the basis of western culture are Greek/Roman based but in what regards Democracy as a form of government being their legacy i wound say that it is vastly exaggerated.

Some glimpses of it now and then but Democracy was never the general rule. In what regards that Democracy was more common on the German tribes whose leaders were not hereditary and chosen by the warriors.

The Greek/Roman contribute had more to do with a state with a law that was respected by all and enforced, a civil law.

Polux, my friend, you are an educated man! You have added another layer of depth to my previous statement. And, the first historically recorded "European" Court and Democracy was held by the Vikings at the Althing in Iceland in 930 where cases were pleaded and sentences levied to keep the peace. This is how Eric the Red was banished from Iceland for three years ,after a conviction of manslaughter, and then established the first European colony in SW Greenland at Eriksfjord. Good luck and good scholarship.

[svrodeorm]

Originally Posted by sailingfarmer

I think some some North East North American indian tribes would have had traces of Nordic genes if the Vikings made it this far.... I can see a stray Viking ship making it to North America... but the chances of getting back were slim. Vikings were Coastal Cruisers like some of the people in here.... too much Blue Water for a Viking boat in a North Atlantic gale... It sure helps tourism to say Vikings landed on a spot in America.... I think we should remain incredulous.

Sorry, but you've got to have confused your facts quite a bit here. Long before the Viking (literally a verb meaning undertaking a sea journey) era, voyages were regularly undertaken from today's Scandinavia to the Med and beyond. There are archeological sites in Sweden where coins and other evidence has been found. stone carvings and cve paintings showing ships with 12-16 crew onboard more than 5000 y old. The area was inhabited after the latest ice age ending some 10000 y ago.

As for the Viking era longships, I believe we have to go well into the 20th centuery to find faster and more efficient sailing craft. The terribly top heavy and notoriously slow and non weatherly crafts of the Spanish, Portuguese etc. could not even compare. Columbus averaged less than 4 knots crossing the Atlantic, wheras a longship would do 12-14 knots downwind in a breeze, as shown by modern day replicas. They were light craft, very light for their time, and with a stron crew, would have more in common with an VOR boat of a few years back, than a clumsy, heavy ship like Samta Maria. Until fibreglass boats became the norm, wooden, light double Enders were still common to see in Scandinavia, on the Baltic, the reveres and lakes. In fact they make excellent river rapid boats, nimble and quick manouevering being important.

Pretty interesting thread!

BTW, talking about early civilizations, how on earth can you hip guys forget the Chinese, Persian, ancient Egyptian and of course Arab ?.

All earlier than Greece( who adopted pretty much all from the Egyptians)

Time to paint antiskid on deck...

[sailingfarmer]

So many Viking Fables of landings in North America have bitten the dust in my lifetime.... some were just plain frauds to spark tourism...

But...On another note... I noticed the nicest real estate in the New World was divided between the Spanish and the Portuguese....

The leftovers went to the English, Dutch and French... (these properties were the coldest, most inhospitable, furthest away from the trade winds, etc.)

BUT... which colonies became cultural, economic, trend setting, gargantuan civilizations?

The 13 colonies which includes the Dutch New Amsterdam (now New York City) is the nexus of the Modern Roman Empire Equivalent (or was until Obama)...(all in jest... if my liberal friends or my Napoleon-worshipping French friends read this). My point is that you can have the best real estate, best climate, best trade routes, best gold mines, thousands of indigenous slaves, the best of everything, etc. ....BUT... IT"S THE PEOPLE ...not the real estate. The America's were nothing but a fractured land of stone age inhabitants and then a giant Spanish gold mine and slave empire until the Englsh and Dutch Europeans arrived. That is why the Asians who crossed the archipelago between Northern Asia and Alaska are not recognized to any degree nor honored as perhaps they should be. Except for the Mayans, Aztecs and Incas... there was little to show...

The Vikings? they were a disappointment. I still maintain that they stopped at Greenland and said...nothing here...let's go home.

[CSY Man]

. The Vikings? they were a disappointment. I still maintain that they stopped at Greenland and said...nothing here...let's go home.

Aye, you are wrong there tiger.
Viking settlements in North America is a fact, not a theory to promote tourism.
Not sure where that comes from? A fertile mind, a troll or an illiterate.