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Old 25-02-2016, 15:46   #91
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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My point precisely.

Who drew the map?
Most likely the Portuguese sailors of old. Some of the maps Henry had did show most portions of South America, although not in any great detail, but enough to know there was a connection to the Pacific. Interestingly, the area around the caribbean also was shown to be another way to the Pacific. What was unknown was how far away China was. Estimates of the earth's circumference were already done before Christopher set sail on his first voyage.
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Old 25-02-2016, 16:19   #92
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Speaking of ancient civilizations. One of the most fascinating chapters is that of the Minoan civilization whose center was around what is now Santorini/Thera. They were destroyed by a volcanic eruption somewhere between 17c and 14c BCE. They were seagoing people and derived their extreme wealth from maritime trade. It is speculated that the remnants of their people who were able to escape the volcano's destruction had passed on their culture and know-how to the ancestors of Greeks, Phoenicians, etc. and were recorded in many ancient chronicles as the "sea peoples". Their palaces and large houses were centrally heated with under the floor ducts. They also had a version of flushable toilets and running water with conical marble plugs to open and stop the flow. To date their written script has not been deciphered. The level of sophistication of their civilization has not been achieved again until almost 2000 years later in the imperial Rome only to be forgotten again until the more recent times.

One can only imagine how far and how quicker our civilization would have progressed but for that volcano event 3,500 years ago. It is highly likely that given their sophisticated maritime activities that they had ventured beyond the Pillars of Hercules. How far beyond is anyone's guess but at least Azores, Canaries and Cape Verde are the likeliest places for them to have visited.
Mohenjo-Daro... 2500bce.. built in the Sind Desert on the then banks of the Indus.. Alexander's (aka Sikundar as he is refered to in ancient texts) men took a lot of knowledge from there when they started his catastrophic trek home.. ]
civilisation started according to each individual's dictated education.. and that may be completely erroneous..
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Old 25-02-2016, 17:22   #93
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

Viking ships were shallow water raiding ships... thy were designed to be rowed upstream to places of plunder. They plundered the coasts so well that capitals had to retreat upstream like Paris and London to avoid their barbarism. They were the ISIS of their day..... they raped and pillaged as far as northern Africa. They were the terror of Europe. Their ships had to be shallow drafted to get up river to the next pillage. Shallow draft boats are not good for TransAtlantic crossings. Thus I strongly doubt that one of the Dragon ships ever made it to North America. Remember the prevailing winds were from the west in the northern latitudes at the best time of the year. Imagine trying to sail into that with a small square sail. Maybe one got lost on a one way trip there if they didn't starve to death or die of thirst.
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Old 25-02-2016, 17:23   #94
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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So many Viking Fables of landings in North America have bitten the dust in my lifetime.... some were just plain frauds to spark tourism...

But...On another note... I noticed the nicest real estate in the New World was divided between the Spanish and the Portuguese....

The leftovers went to the English, Dutch and French... (these properties were the coldest, most inhospitable, furthest away from the trade winds, etc.)

BUT... which colonies became cultural, economic, trend setting, gargantuan civilizations?

The 13 colonies which includes the Dutch New Amsterdam (now New York City) is the nexus of the Modern Roman Empire Equivalent (or was until Obama)...(all in jest... if my liberal friends or my Napoleon-worshipping French friends read this). My point is that you can have the best real estate, best climate, best trade routes, best gold mines, thousands of indigenous slaves, the best of everything, etc. ....BUT... IT"S THE PEOPLE ...not the real estate. The America's were nothing but a fractured land of stone age inhabitants and then a giant Spanish gold mine and slave empire until the Englsh and Dutch Europeans arrived. That is why the Asians who crossed the archipelago between Northern Asia and Alaska are not recognized to any degree nor honored as perhaps they should be. Except for the Mayans, Aztecs and Incas... there was little to show...

The Vikings? they were a disappointment. I still maintain that they stopped at Greenland and said...nothing here...let's go home.
You should study this Viking topic a bit & perhaps visit this site.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Anse_aux_Meadows

The Jamestown,Va. & Massachusetts British colonies were a result of religious dissension ,though the British businessmen & their allies weren't long in recognizing the profitability of the fur & cod trade.

The French recognized the same fur & cod goldmine that is now Canada.

The Spanish were lucky enough to hit the Mexican jackpot & were the only boaters of actual gold stolen from the natives. Also,Spain ruled the seas with the strongest navy of the time.

Portugal settled Brazil,but they were really interested in maintaining their long established Asian trade.

The long distance European sailors/discoverers in chronological order in the 500-1800 time period were:
1. Vikings
2. Portugese/Italian/Genovese/ Dutch
3. Spain
4. France
5. English

Len
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Old 25-02-2016, 17:42   #95
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

I copied the evidence off the net... seems pretty iffy when the word "possibly" is used repeatedly and artifacts were routinely salted in the past.

Evidence of Norse west of Greenland came in the 1960s when archaeologist Anne Stine Ingstad and her husband, outdoorsman and author Helge Ingstad, excavated a Norse settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland. The location of the various lands described in the sagas remains unclear, however. Many historians identify Helluland with Baffin Island and Markland with Labrador. The location of Vinland poses a thornier question. Most believe that the L'Anse aux Meadows settlement represents the Vinland settlement described in the sagas; others argue that the sagas depict Vinland as warmer than Newfoundland and therefore lying farther south.[citation needed]

In 2012 Canadian researchers identified possible signs of Norse outposts in Nanook at Tanfield Valley on Baffin Island, as well as on Nunguvik, Willows Island and the Avayalik Islands.[19][20][21] Unusual fabric cordage found on Baffin Island in the 1980s and stored at the Canadian Museum of Civilization was identified in 1999 as possibly of Norse manufacture; that discovery led to more in-depth exploration of the Tanfield Valley archaeological site.[citation needed]

Purported runestones have been found in North America, most famously the Kensington Runestone. Although they are generally considered hoaxes, some regard these as artifacts from further Norse exploration.
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Old 25-02-2016, 17:45   #96
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

I think I will go up to Nova Scotia with some salted Viking items from Norway to make a big splash on my newfound Viking discovery. I assume some of you will fall for it easily.
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Old 25-02-2016, 17:50   #97
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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I think I will go up to Nova Scotia with some salted Viking items from Norway to make a big splash on my newfound Viking discovery. I assume some of you will fall for it easily.
But smart guys like you know better?
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Old 25-02-2016, 18:14   #98
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pirate Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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Viking ships were shallow water raiding ships... thy were designed to be rowed upstream to places of plunder. They plundered the coasts so well that capitals had to retreat upstream like Paris and London to avoid their barbarism. They were the ISIS of their day..... they raped and pillaged as far as northern Africa. They were the terror of Europe. Their ships had to be shallow drafted to get up river to the next pillage. Shallow draft boats are not good for TransAtlantic crossings. Thus I strongly doubt that one of the Dragon ships ever made it to North America. Remember the prevailing winds were from the west in the northern latitudes at the best time of the year. Imagine trying to sail into that with a small square sail. Maybe one got lost on a one way trip there if they didn't starve to death or die of thirst.
Makes one wonder how 2 men can row across the Atlantic huh..??
Considering the Vikings had up to 20 oars each side I think they'd have made it easily..
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Old 25-02-2016, 18:24   #99
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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But smart guys like you know better?
Just trying to make my point the best way I can by using a scenario that has been used over and over...
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Old 25-02-2016, 18:28   #100
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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Originally Posted by sailingfarmer View Post
Viking ships were shallow water raiding ships... thy were designed to be rowed upstream to places of plunder. They plundered the coasts so well that capitals had to retreat upstream like Paris and London to avoid their barbarism. They were the ISIS of their day..... they raped and pillaged as far as northern Africa. They were the terror of Europe. Their ships had to be shallow drafted to get up river to the next pillage. Shallow draft boats are not good for TransAtlantic crossings. Thus I strongly doubt that one of the Dragon ships ever made it to North America. Remember the prevailing winds were from the west in the northern latitudes at the best time of the year. Imagine trying to sail into that with a small square sail. Maybe one got lost on a one way trip there if they didn't starve to death or die of thirst.
This Viking longboat actually exists. Perhaps you missed the video in Polux' post #40. It travels at up to 14kts-I believe -& has crossed the ocean.
A few modern sailors have rowed across & many have sailed very tiny (compared to a longship)boats both ways.
Note that it planes. It took us smart modern folk more than a thousand years to get a boat up on plane.
Vikings lived on the water & were experts.
My ING ancestor left the north coast of Germany (Angles) & settled on the east coast of England c/a 600 AD. Other Vikings continued on to Iceland & Greenland. The hop from Greenland to NFLD is a few days sail,so I have no doubt in my mind that Vikings were capable of reaching & exploring North & South America if they desired.
Maybe they brought runes with them & planted them all over the new world just for fun.
I realize their travels were not recorded on Youtube. I just have to see what is dug up & let the archaeologists figure it out.

Cheers/ Len Ingalls

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Old 25-02-2016, 18:30   #101
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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Just trying to make my point the best way I can by using a scenario that has been used over and over...
And your point, I assume, is to ignore archaeology and science and instead write your own history because you don't know any better?
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Old 25-02-2016, 18:32   #102
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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Makes one wonder how 2 men can row across the Atlantic huh..??
Considering the Vikings had up to 20 oars each side I think they'd have made it easily..
It would be interesting to see if that could be re-enacted like Kon Tiki... not many volunteers I bet... unless there was a trailing supply ship 100 feet away... remember the route ...Greenland going east to New Foundland... not the favorite route to row these days... especially with currents, cold and storms...
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Old 25-02-2016, 18:39   #103
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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This Viking longboat actually exists. Perhaps you missed the video in Polux' post #40. It travels at up to 14kts-I believe -& has crossed the ocean.
A few modern sailors have rowed across & many have sailed very tiny (compared to a longship)boats both ways.
Note that it planes. It took us smart modern folk more than a thousand years to get a boat up on plane.
Vikings lived on the water & were experts.
My ING ancestor left the north coast of Germany (Angles) & settled on the east coast of England c/a 600 AD. Other Vikings continued on to Iceland & Greenland. The hop from Greenland to NFLD is a few days sail,so I have no doubt in my mind that Vikings were capable of reaching & exploring North & South America if they desired.
Maybe they brought runes with them & planted them all over the new world just for fun.
I realize their travels were not recorded on Youtube. I just have to see what is dug up & let the archaeologists figure it out.

Cheers/ Len Ingalls

The hop from Greenland to NFLD is a few days sail,

Love to see any mariners here report that...
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Old 25-02-2016, 18:48   #104
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It would be interesting to see if that could be re-enacted like Kon Tiki... not many volunteers I bet... unless there was a trailing supply ship 100 feet away... remember the route ...Greenland going east to New Foundland... not the favorite route to row these days... especially with currents, cold and storms...
Well... there's a Brit with a 21ft Junk sail bilge keeler who's gone from the UK to Greenland..
As for the currents.. no problem.. Norway to the Faroes the prevailing currents is on the beam.. after the Faroes they go NW toward Iceland.. before curving SW along the Greenland coast at who's tip they go NW then W to Newfoundland.. nothing to difficult.
As for the cold.. doubt it bothered them overmuch.. they were not 21st century pussies who needed airconditioning and central heating.. they were happy with an open brazier..

CF H&S police woulda had a field day..
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Old 25-02-2016, 18:56   #105
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

Icebergs, extreme low temps..westerly currents....hmmmmm. I notice sailors who have sailed between New Foundland and Greenland ALWAYS go west. Remember this is with modern boats with all the equipment...

I could be proven wrong and I accept that this is a possibility... but my theory is it is UNLIKELY given the extreme conditions and short weather window. Possible but unlikely...and there is a history of too many charlatans making Viking landings up for financial reasons.
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