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Old 26-02-2016, 13:24   #151
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pirate Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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I guess I should have pre-faced my post with "Western civilization". I am keenly aware of all the other either contemporaneous or pre-existing civilizations - ancient Chinese, Fertile Crescent, Egypt, Indus Valley, etc. But they all had negligible influence (with possible exception of Fertile Crescent ones) on our own.

But on a similar note what galls me the most is the continuing Euro-centric worship of the nautical prowess of the Western seafarers beginning with say the Vikings, when by the time of the Vikings the Polynesians have moved from originally Taiwan (8,000 yrs ago) to all over the Pacific by about the time of the Vikings. Now that's an accomplishment worth celebrating.

And even the Aussie Aboriginals are high achievers having come to Australia 40,000-50,000 yrs ago by crossing at least 20-50 miles of open sea. Don't think they did it by just riding atop logs or some such.
Hmmmm... I have a theory about that which puts their start further SW.. The Indian sub-continent.
No scientific evidence to support it but what the hell..
In the Veda's there is talk of a great battle that took place in S India between what are now called Tamils (who had been driven south by the Aryan invasion 5000+ years ago) and a giant race whom they eventually succeeded in driving into the sea..
Now if you take a typical Tamil and stand him next to a Samoan or Fijian you will see that they are indeed giants in comparison.
They ended up on the Pacific islands and NZ due to the fact Burma, Thailand and the large islands of Malaysia, Indonesia and Guinea were already populated by existing civilisations or tribes of fierce cannibals who drove them off and onwards..
I just cannot see Taiwan as producing these peoples.. is there any factual archeology that backs this claim ??


Where did these people come from, and how did they reach the far islands? Answering these questions has occupied amateur and professional scholars over the last four centuries. It has been a highly interdisciplinary effort: linguists, archaeologists, anthropologists, folklorists, historians, ethnobotanists, oceanographers, and other specialists have applied their talents to the puzzle. However, what really distinguishes this inquiry is that Polynesians have recently joined in the quest - with a significant difference. They address the problem not as outsiders simply intrigued by an intellectual puzzle, but as descendants of a long lineage of seafarers who explored and settled the Pacific. Focusing upon the voyaging canoe, the artifact that made the migration possible, Hawaiians, Tahitians, New Zealand and Cook Island Maori, and other Pacific Islanders have begun to reconstruct their ancient craft and sail them over the long seaways of the Pacific in order to rediscover their oceanic heritage.
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Old 26-02-2016, 13:25   #152
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

There was a certain disdain throughout European history for the Spanish or Portuguese... some didn't even consider them truly European. Since Iberia was raped by the Moors for 800 years and the Moors were only stopped moving north by the Franks (French) once they crossed the Pyrenees.... Iberia was cut off from the rest of Europe for centuries culturally and genetically.

One of the reasons the new Spanish monarchy pushed the "Conquistadores" into the New World was that they felt uncomfortable with these ruthless killers remaining behind with no new Pure Moorish enemies to fight. Like the hired gunslingers with a badge cleaning up the Western towns in America... what did you do with them when the crime problem was solved...? With 800 years of the rape of Spain... the genes were more Arabic/Semitic or African than European... especially in the south of Iberia. So maybe the first true Europeans to colonize America were the English. If so then Jamestown, Virginia was the first European colony... Controversial? Yes.
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Old 26-02-2016, 13:43   #153
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

Boatie, wrt your post #151, actually, there is some corroboration, in Oppenheimer's book, "Black Eve". The Aboriginal genetic structure is most like that of people from Bangladesh. However, the picture he paints is not that they came direct from India, but migrated to SE Asia over a very long time, and then south across Torres St., at a time when the ice pack was huge, and there was little open water to cross at that location.
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Old 26-02-2016, 13:50   #154
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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I just cannot see Taiwan as producing these peoples.. is there any factual archeology that backs this claim ??[/SIZE][/FONT]

Where did these people come from, and how did they reach the far islands? Answering these questions has occupied amateur and professional scholars over the last four centuries. It has been a highly interdisciplinary effort: linguists, archaeologists, anthropologists, folklorists, historians, ethnobotanists, oceanographers, and other specialists have applied their talents to the puzzle. However, what really distinguishes this inquiry is that Polynesians have recently joined in the quest - with a significant difference. They address the problem not as outsiders simply intrigued by an intellectual puzzle, but as descendants of a long lineage of seafarers who explored and settled the Pacific. Focusing upon the voyaging canoe, the artifact that made the migration possible, Hawaiians, Tahitians, New Zealand and Cook Island Maori, and other Pacific Islanders have begun to reconstruct their ancient craft and sail them over the long seaways of the Pacific in order to rediscover their oceanic heritage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_peoples

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_Taiwan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_aborigines

It has been both linguistically and genetically established for a few years now that the ancestors of today's Polynesians originally came from Taiwan by way of Malasiya, Indonesia, etc. Now, we need to back up a bit. Taiwan itself became fully "Chinese" only around 1630s and prior to that the vast majority of it's population were not Chinese but kinda Malayan-Polynesian looking and definitely speaking as they have 2 dozen or more languages which are related, at the base, to the Polynesian languages. The Chinese in the past 400 years did their best to eradicate any non-Chinese culture in Taiwan but the aboriginals are hanging on albeit in dwindled numbers of only 500,000 (only in China or India half a million people would be considered a dwindling number )

I have only learned about this a few years back and it partially explains Taiwan's desire not to join mainland China politically. They kinda lucked out when Chiang Kai-shek severed them from the Communist China.
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Old 26-02-2016, 13:50   #155
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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Intermarriage...?
Is that what you call it when a slave owner rapes a slave woman and produces a mulatto? Political correctness rather than reality?
No intermarriage is when a California man marries a Florida girl and moves to the Northeast.
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Old 26-02-2016, 13:57   #156
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pirate Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_peoples

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_Taiwan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_aborigines

It has been both linguistically and genetically established for a few years now that the ancestors of today's Polynesians originally came from Taiwan by way of Malasiya, Indonesia, etc. Now, we need to back up a bit. Taiwan itself became fully "Chinese" only around 1630s and prior to that the vast majority of it's population were not Chinese but kinda Malayan-Polynesian looking and definitely speaking as they have 2 dozen or more languages which are related, at the base, to the Polynesian languages. The Chinese in the past 400 years did their best to eradicate any non-Chinese culture in Taiwan but the aboriginals are hanging on albeit in dwindled numbers of only 500,000 (only in China or India half a million people would be considered a dwindling number )

I have only learned about this a few years back and it partially explains Taiwan's desire not to join mainland China politically. They kinda lucked out when Chiang Kai-shek severed them from the Communist China.
I am working on memories of what I read and studied over 40yrs ago..lol
But from what you say the progression east sounds like my suppositions/theories are in the right zone more or less.. and not totally out of the ballpark.
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Old 26-02-2016, 14:05   #157
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

But to get back to the original topic.

Many forget or fail to realize that world climate was warmer between 800CE and 1300sCE compared to today. For some, such as Vikings in Greenland or people in Europe in general it was a boon (notice how it corresponded to the general advance of European civilization compared to the "Dark Ages") but for others such as the Mayas it was a bust as their cropland dried up and/or the jungle area increased and their civilization crumbled.

So if we consider this then warmer climate we can see how in 1000AD Baffin Is. was ecologically more like Labrador today, and Labrador was more like Newfoundland and Newfoundland was more like New England is now, and so on. And this would explain all the discrepancies, as to where Vinland was or may have been, make sense. Besides, the latest theory now is that the "vin" in Vinland meant not wine form any grape but "vinber" - wine made from wild berries of some sort. Which again would make perfect sense if Newfoundland's climate was more like Maine with its abundant berry harvests.
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Old 26-02-2016, 14:08   #158
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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No intermarriage is when a California man marries a Florida girl and moves to the Northeast.
But what would they wear in the winter?
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Old 26-02-2016, 14:14   #159
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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I am working on memories of what I read and studied over 40yrs ago..lol
But from what you say the progression east sounds like my suppositions/theories are in the right zone more or less.. and not totally out of the ballpark.
While race based division of humanity has very shaky scientific underpinnings but if we do use it for political or other purposes I often wonder why the 4th race, which would include Malay/Polynesians and 5th race - Tamil, Dravidians, Australian aboriginals, etc. are not recognized. To be politically correct we should either recognize none or recognize all.
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Old 26-02-2016, 14:19   #160
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pirate Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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While race based division of humanity has very shaky scientific underpinnings but if we do use it for political or other purposes I often wonder why the 4th race, which would include Malay/Polynesians and 5th race - Tamil, Dravidians, Australian aboriginals, etc. are not recognized. To be politically correct we should either recognize none or recognize all.
I guess coz it would shake Western Science to the core.. and we can't have that..
I mean.. we all come from the Rift Valley.. don't we.?
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Old 26-02-2016, 14:21   #161
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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But what would they wear in the winter?
Having high survival traits we have learned to blend in with the natives. Our offspring don't really understand they are different and have pretty much gone native.
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Old 26-02-2016, 14:43   #162
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Having high survival traits we have learned to blend in with the natives. Our offspring don't really understand they are different and have pretty much gone native.
Yeah, that baseball cap with a red B can go a long way to mask one's non-native gene pool.
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Old 26-02-2016, 14:57   #163
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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I guess coz it would shake Western Science to the core.. and we can't have that..
I mean.. we all come from the Rift Valley.. don't we.?
I'll tell you even one better. As told to us 35 years ago in an anthropology class by a globe trotting chain smoking (in the class no less, aah those good old politically incorrect times) female semi-famous at the time professor - the racists are all wrong. The first proto-humans and their ancestors were not black, as apes are not black, they just had/have darker hair to shade them from the African sun. She even told us to check this out by ruffling the hair of the blackest cat or dog we can find and we will find the pinkest skin underneath (she said we can also try that with the chimps but advised against it obviously). And that the dark skin was relatively late acquired trait which has nothing to do with anything other than adopting the body to walking around hairless under the scorching son. Thus over the years (anthropologically speaking i.e. millennia) where you'll find a scorching sun you'll find humans with dark skin. That's all there is to it.
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Old 26-02-2016, 15:49   #164
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pirate Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
I'll tell you even one better. As told to us 35 years ago in an anthropology class by a globe trotting chain smoking (in the class no less, aah those good old politically incorrect times) female semi-famous at the time professor - the racists are all wrong. The first proto-humans and their ancestors were not black, as apes are not black, they just had/have darker hair to shade them from the African sun. She even told us to check this out by ruffling the hair of the blackest cat or dog we can find and we will find the pinkest skin underneath (she said we can also try that with the chimps but advised against it obviously). And that the dark skin was relatively late acquired trait which has nothing to do with anything other than adopting the body to walking around hairless under the scorching son. Thus over the years (anthropologically speaking i.e. millennia) where you'll find a scorching sun you'll find humans with dark skin. That's all there is to it.
So... eating rice all the time slits your eyes over the centuries with the straining and the Soy Sauce yellowed the skin..
That's the Chinese sorted..

Yeah.. okay I'll go for it
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Old 26-02-2016, 16:54   #165
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Re: Oldest European Settlement in US

Hey... if history forgets 1000 years from now... American 3rd or 4th generation Europeans colonized the moon for a few hours in a very primitive ship.
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