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Old 06-09-2005, 18:43   #16
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Same but different?????????

Not much different from the Coast Guard bording in the middle of the night - government interference with personel lives. If a man wants to go to sea in a less than sound vessel, it is his right. I can understand the purpose, but the idea makes no sense.
The general idea is that should all vessels pass inspection, the government will spend less money retrieving disabled vessels from precarious situations. The theory is sound as long as all vessel make landfall in NZ. It falls apart when one considers that all vessels that require assistance do not stop in NZ but are within the boundries of the government's area of assistance.
Just another government intrusion.
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Old 07-09-2005, 18:46   #17
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you can get ORC category rules for free

www.orc.org type in the type of hull and print it out.
fair winds,
eric
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Old 09-09-2005, 14:30   #18
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No Jim, it is majorly different to the Coastguard thing. Actually, seeing as you guy's live in a Sue the pants off ya society, I am surprised at many Americans attitudes to this. So just to clarify this. Firstly, it's not a government or Beurocratic money making excersise. I know as sailors, one of the biggest draws to the lifestyle is the sense of freedom. The freedom to go anywhere anytime. Well sorry, but that just ain't true. You can sail as far as you want, but you can never make landfall unless you have all the required paperwork for the country you are entering. And actually, it doesn't have to be landfall. Just teratorial waters. There are one or two countries out there, that entering their waters without the paper work, would or could mean you may never see your boat agin, let alone, maybe never seeing anyone again.
But lets not venture to that aspect. The aspect of NZ maritime laws are simple. In the advent of a rescue somewhere in the Pacific, we as Kiwis pick up the tab. And simply, our country can't afford it. 99.99% of all visiting craft into NZ waters will be upto snuff with seaworthyness, so there will be no issues. I doubt ever, that anyvisiting craft would be forced to go through the inspection rigours that are asked of a NZ sailor and his craft. But it is surprising, head scratching and just plain dumbfounding, that the odd rare occasion, that 0.01%, brings some guy in a boat that defies all laws of physics of remaining afloat, with no safety gear. Now there are few places in the world that would test a sailor and his craft than that of the Southern Ocean. I just had a very nice 5 days out on my boat. It was abnormaly nice weather for this time of the year. We had one day were the wind actually droped below 25knts. Can you imagine the sea state when the wind has being blowing at over 25knts continuose for over a week. Now add to that, we had a Southerly Sea swell from the deep Southern ocean of 1.5m (4-5ft) and a Northerly seaswell from the Tasman of 1.5m. It makes for some reall interesting stuff. Every oversea's traveler I have ever meet, Have all had similar stories, "I have sailed all over the world and have never experianced the weather and seas we meet as we came through that Cook Straight."
So to summ this up, if you went to sea in a Bath tub and used a hand towel for the sail and you said, "hey my problem, serves me right, just leave me", sorry, but we would still come and rescue you. We are Kiwis, we just tend to be that kind of people
And finally, why do the Kiwis get the stringent rules? well because we have easy access to the waters around us, and unfortunately, many seem to like the idea of getting out there when all they have is the Bath tube and hand towel type boat. And then they get into trouble because they just didn't realise what the sea could dish up. We have just had a law past, that now all boats no matter what size, MUST have a lifejacket suitible for every person aboard. You just wouildn't believe the number of drowning per year here, for ones that went out in a tinnie to catch some dinner and was overwhelmed by a weather change, all because they had no life jacket.
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Old 11-09-2005, 17:55   #19
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HUH???????

Government intervention is government intervention, government rules is government rules, government being bothersome is bothersome.
I have missed the entire point. The NZ govenment has imposed rules to prevent unsafe vessels from leaving its ports to reduce the rescues it is duty bound to perform. That is a laudable intention. Did it ever cross their minds that foreign boats did not grow out of the water in their harbor. Foreign boats reached their shores and their area of intervention on their own bottoms without the NZ govenments inspection and many of the vessels of foreign registry that they assist in the course of a year have never entered a NZ harbor. That is the point. If I can get to New Zealand on my own bottom, alive and without the intervention of the NZ Coast Guard, they have no business with me.
To put it simply, "Why don't they (and the US Coast Guard) mind their own business. If they come to my rescue before I enter the country, board and cite me for whatever infraction, but otherwise, leave me alone.
Jim
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Old 11-09-2005, 22:23   #20
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Foreign boat

I have a photo of a foreign boat in Auckland. It is about 60 feet and made from heavy aluminum. This boat had been everywhere, but by the time it got to NZ the rear sections of the hull were distorting so bad that the propshaft was jamming and so was the rudder. The boat had left NZ but had to return with the above problems. Volunteers were working on the boat over the Christmas holidays to make it seaworthy.
All places have rules that may seem strange when viewed from afar. I know this NZ rule was debated a lot when it first came out. But the number of long range rescues that they have to perform is quite amazing. In some states you have to register your dinghy and that seems strange to me. Foreigners are supposed to be exempt to this rule I believe but they still get apprehended. We have to have an opertors card now to run a boat in Canada, and there are many other funny requirements. It does not bother me even though it may seem like government silliness.
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Old 11-09-2005, 22:40   #21
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We have much foolish legislation and EU intervention in the UK, but fortunately we (boat owners) have no government intervention.
When we read of the the requirements for both boat owners' qualifications and for boat inspections elsewhere then we do have something to be thankful for. I know there have been calls for some regulation in rather congested waters, but regulation does not keep fools off the road, does it?
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Old 12-09-2005, 01:00   #22
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Hi again Jentine, I would like to make it clear at this point, that I am not arguing against you personaly. Just to be clear.

Let me clarify some aspects.
Firstly, It's not really a "Government intervention" Or Big brother type action or what have you, as such here. It is a Safety Authority that has made a rule, and to give the rule clout, the Government passes it as a Law. So lets go a step further back and why the safety regulations came about. Firstly, the reason for safety rules in Racing, was from a Race (I think it was a Fastnet, but anyone correct me if I am wrong) That went horribly wrong due to foul weather. Vessels and lives were lost. Racing safety regulations were made so as something like that didn't happen again. In the years that followed, there were still races that went horribly wrong and which allowed the regs to corrected. One such race was a Sydney to Hobart where once again, the elements were majorly against the competitors. You have to remember one important aspect of all this. When it is a major Yacht race, the Skippers and crew and mighty competitive. Heck, actually any Sailor is like that when a race is on. But with the really big boy's, they try and cut the corners down to get the best speed they possibly can from their boat. They actually play dice with winning the race or losing the ultimate, their boat and possibly their life, doing so. So regulations were made not for the sake of making rules, but for the sake of drawing a line. It gave a very clear line to the designers, the owners and the skippers, of what had to be a minimum safety requirment, to ensure the safety of ALL Participants in a race.
Now here in NZ, we have, as I have stated many times, a surrounding Ocean and Weather pattern, not to be taken lightly. For example, I am sailing from my home base port, down the coast of the South Island to a place called Akaroa at Christmas. All going well, it should take 30-40hrs. But there is absolutely no where to go if I run into problems or bad weather. It is a very dangerouse coastline, much like most of NZ's coastline. It offers little protection when needed. That's just coastal Sailing here. If you want to venture out further, there is little to aim for for thousands of miles in any direction. We can have massive ocean swells here. I have been in 40ft swells and that is nothing to what I have heard from some sailors stories. So.... the Regulations in NZ were extended to cover NZ vessels. They are of varying degrees of requirments, depending on if you are harbour sailing, coastal sailing and offshore sailing. They are designed for and there for, to save lives. Many sailors that are venturing on a world discovery buy books that tell them all sorts of things about such sailing. NZ has gone one step further and actually has a team of proffesional people that come onboard and tell you what you require and what condition your boat is in all for the cost of NZ$100.
Now a few have arrived, we don't know how they managed to, but they did, only to be told they aren't seaworthy, the authorities couldn't do anything about it and the sailor leaves and a few days later calls a Mayday. We had one guy that was rescued Twice about a year ago. Although he had it in his mind was going to row single handed to Oz. Hmmmm, wonder if he is related to Janice.
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:50   #23
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Dont forget that a major contributor to the reduction in safety on boats was the racing rules themselves. They have warped the shape of the boats from being a design created to deal with bad weather, to something that will work very well in light winds and smooth seas. As soon as they hit really bad conditions they are very vulnerable. The Fastnet race is a prime example of this, A class of boats that were becoming less competitive due to rule changes was the Contessas. These are superb sea boats, but rules were satrting to make them uncompetitive. However, they all managed quite OK during that Fastnet storm, whereas the more modern boats exposed their vulnerabilities.

It may interest you that there were a couple of Prout Snowgooses abt 50 miles further south than the Fastnet fleet, that arrived in Plymouth wondering what all the fuss was about!
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Old 12-09-2005, 08:24   #24
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Fastnet

There were other boats in the near vicinity that did not have problems, just as there are folks in the US South that did not have problems from Katrina.
Much of the conditions during the Fastnet and the Sydney Hobart race were localised. At least that is what it says in the books I have read. We had safety rules well before these events, the Fastnet prompted an inquiry, where they learned what they already new. The IOR rule needed changes.
The press is always present at the major racing events so if there is a problem it will get reported, forever. Meanwhile far more cruising sailors come to grief without the benefit of the press coverage.
A large motor cruiser was stollen from the land of Ozz many years ago and headed North East. There was trouble on board between the crew and problems operating the boat. The ensuing rescue was a classic. The boat would likely be abbandoned and it was worth claiming. The owner wanted it back and hired a large tug from NZ. So there were quite a few boats from NZ headed North to claim it. We were all placing our bets.
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Old 13-09-2005, 06:19   #25
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cat 1 laws

just thought i'd throw my 2 cents in as someone who has been through the NZ cat 1 and had direct dealings with them twice. I'd say it depends greatly who surveys your boat for cat 1 and if they know you and your experience and more importantly how you would handle a situation. Inspectors can and have the power to make many exceptions to the Cat 1 law in NZ but remember they want to know that you can face any situation out there on the southern ocean and survive and not have a inspector to blame. In my opinion it is often easier to sail to NZ down through the Pacific and arrive here in one bit. It is a lot harder to leave and go to Australia or the islands and ensure safety. For many sailers who have sailed down wind until Fiji, the NZ weather is a real shock. When I lived in the Bay of Islands and worked with offshore yachts, I lost count of the number of couples who got here and then went to leave, limping back into port 3 or 4 days later and selling up their boat.

You will find the NZ Cat 1 system fair and well set up for offshore sailers. Sure it will urk some people who subscribe to the theory of if i'm in the sh1t I'll get myself out of it without the EPIRB, but for the rest of us (and to keep the peace with the partner) it's cheap insurance to know that you meet the standards set up for our own protection.

On the subject of exceptions, Cat 1 specifies a SSB however a HF Ham radio will surfice. It also specifies lifelines must be of S/S and free of plastic coatings. I stripped the plastic off mine and when the inspector saw me doing this he laughed and said it didn't matter as they looked new. However they did want proper encapsulated engine mounts which in the event of a full roll over would ensure the engine wouldn't fly around the cabin. My fix for this was a length of wire rope over the engine bolted to the floor beams.

In my travels it does worry me seeing some of the under equipted boats out there on our ocean. Just last week up here in the islands we had to come to the rescue of an American boat that was in trouble and quite honestly they were very poorly equipted for offshore sailing. They were about to head to NZ so I guess my taxes may have to go towards a rescue of them and their boat. I mean how could you sail from the West Coast of the US to Vanuatu without replacing a deisel fuel filter and worst of all not carrying any spares? They were on a lee shore in 25 knots trying to work out why their engine would not work.

Wheels if you are in Akaroa of Christmas I might bump into you.
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Old 13-09-2005, 13:52   #26
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In Akaroa, now that would be cool. I am going to be in Wainui sailing Kids around for a youth camp there, for a few days. Will probably leave here Boxing day and will be in Akaroa harbour till the 7thJan I think.
But I will need to venture over to Akaroa for fuel once in awhile and may take some trips over for fun with Kids. IF you can, call me on VHF or pull up along side or what ever.
I am also hoping to do the Akl to Rusell race at Labour weekend. Not confirmed yet, but any chance you maybe???
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