Now I understand how poor i am.

[daletournier]

The subject is so much bigger than just a left wing ,right wing political discussion. There are huge structural monetary system problems that wont be getting solved anytime soon. Minimum wage increase isnt the solution, currency debasement over the decades (inflation) makes us poorer.
My parents just sold the house I grew up in. They purchased it for $9000 in 1965 (Melbourne Australia) dad's wage back then was $3,800/year. So roughly a ration 2.5:1 house price wage ratio.
They just sold it for $955,000 aud.
The house price wage ratio (average wage) is approx 15:1.
Dad was a electrician, he would need to be earning approx $400,000/year today as a electrician to buy the same house , in regards to affordability. Who earns that? That is some serious inflation!
Keep in mind this is a very ordinary working class house.
Purchasing power has been disappearing for years, except for the things we don't need like tv's etc.
Interesting that some on this thread seem to think politics is becoming more right wing, I suppose it depends from where you look. Personally I see a stealth socilism thing creeping in that promises money the system cant deliver.

Cheers Dale.

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[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by tp12

Leaving aside your condescending initial statement; remember to be nice ... your point doesn't counter mine at all, it simply misconstrues it.

Have a nice weekend.

Not at all. I was suggesting an approach to understand the situation better as you don't seem to understand that art and capitalism go together.

The Medici were hard core capitalists. They wrote the playbook (well Machiavelli technically) on how to use and abuse capitalistic power. Yet they (and their peers) were the source of one of histories greatest artistic explosions. This runs completely counter to your implication that a capitalist society will result in a world without art.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by thomm225

No, I'm a tech type by nature. (manager now) We maintain flight simulators. We have 80 computers running during certain Hops on some of our simulators. (for the visuals, I/O, control loading, motion, and radar)

This after grand theft auto, multiple tickets for speeding/racing, skipping 60 days in 10th grade, being a straight up small scale teenage hoodlum, and so on. Point is, some of us are simply lucky we can fix things which seems to pay a lot these days and that we are very good with math, logic etc

I'm talking about those that are natural artists by nature. There's only big money available for a few of them

Those that have trouble with math but that can write much better than most folks ever will be able to.

Or they can learn to play music very very easily and totally get it. Not just play a crazy guitar to show off.

Looks like your world is a bit limited if you don't know about a whole portion of society and simply rate people on the type job they have and the amount of money they make.

Many of those higher paying jobs you mentioned can turn people into something simple having little to no imagination.....

You were doing fine until you decided to insult me by attempting to tell me what I know and don't know.

Society "rates" people on their worth to society. It does that by the amount of money it is willing to pay them. This goes back to my statement on the relative worth and pay level of a ditch digger related to a doctor.

You may not think it's right, but that's the way it works.

Perhaps you would be happier living in Cuba where everyone is equally poor.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by tp12

There's some hard right conservative views being expressed here. Equality of opportunity, which defines options for choice, does not exist. There are so many factors at play, societal, family and so on it is indeed a simplistic view to simply say people made the wrong choices. Without knowing what choices they had to make, their situations and so on it's just hot air really, alienates people and does nothing to make any positive change

Anyway ... my last post on the subject

And what is wrong with hard right conservative views? When the Pilgrims came to this country they didn't have welfare or a minimum wage. Everyone was expected to contribute to the best of his or her ability.

[goat]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Society "rates" people on their worth to society. It does that by the amount of money it is willing to pay them.

Kardashians vs neurosurgeons.

goat

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[DotDun]

Originally Posted by tp12

I think you need to be careful about labelling artists and telling them they make bad choices or whatever. If you think about what sort of society you want to live in; is it full of capitalists trying to make millions and all that entails? Especially given that a business exists and is legally obliged to create profit for its shareholders ... plenty of corners get cut that make for a poorer society overall.

Or do you want to have museums, galleries, books to read, theatre to go to and so on? If you think that benefits society as a whole, you need to cut artists some slack.

So, where do the "Arts" fall on Maslow's Hierarchy?

The "Arts" are subject to supply and demand the same as most goods and services. Since the "Arts" cater to the 1%, when there are more Artists than demand, like every other business, the value of the product goes down.

[LEOCAT66]

Government has no business dictating how much anyone is paid by a private business owner and never has. Nor should they impose restrictions of any kind on, who to hire or not hire, smoking restrictions, handi capped parking spaces or access. All of these items and more restrict freedom. If someone does not like the way I do business they are totally free to do business where conditions are to their liking and there will be plenty of those around. Most of these dictates by government are about vote buying, and facilitating special interest.

This mindset, of government dictates, has now entered the world of cruisers, such as NO MORE ANCHORING HERE.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by spraygun

If your going to do the job that you applied for. Regardless of pressure.I'm mostly talking about fast food.Then be the best and don't complain.You should have made better decisions in life.

(...)

I don't believe fast food wages were ever intended to support a family.Those jobs were to provide for the youth to learn work experience.

I have read your post and I agree with most of your thoughts.

My two reflections here are that at times the decisions are not ours. We do not make them, they are made for us by others. At times the setting, social but even more economic, is as is where is and you simply end up doing this or that. For this is the only job you can take if you are born in a specific place, family, etc. So you are right about wrong choices but I also think that we should be allowed to correct our wrong choices. This is not the case in many countries, especially when you get stuck in a low paid and tiring job.

And wages, food chain or otherwise, should reflect your input in financial well being of the company. If they do not, then why should any government protect companies more than it protects the citizen? Is the government by the people for the people, or is it by the companies for the companies? I think, today, throughout vast portions of the world, it is the latter.

There are companies that simply do not make a lot of money. Then I say low wages are OK and may be preferred to the alternative of having no job. But there are also huge international food chains that apparently make heaps of cash. It is very ambivalent when a company pays low wages 'giving the young the opportunity to learn jobs' while its owner and executives own villas in Antigua and private jets. Especially that young (and often not all that young) people flipping hamburgers are NOT learning anything. They are just flipping hamburgers.

So this is my two Eurocentric cents. A slightly different angle from watching some alternative government systems that apparently work fine too.

b.

[a64pilot]

Wife and I went roller skating the other day, well really took out Daughter a few years ago.
Speed skating was something the wife did as a kid and had a job at the rink after school.
Back then except for one or two adults the rink was operated by kids as part time after school jobs.
That's not true anymore, we both noticed how odd it was that everyone working there were older adults, many you would think of Retirement age. I think they can't make it on SS anymore and have to work, this isn't a good job, but it's a job and they have to work.
I don't think many kids have after school jobs anymore?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by LEOCAT66

Government has no business dictating how much anyone is paid by a private business owner and never has.

(...)

This is one extreme. The other is where a government dictates everything from how you run your business to what colour of underpants you wear.

But extremes, in government, like in sailing, are hardly ever good for everybody. And while we cannot please everybody, we may agree (or not) that the best society is when most of us live best.

Right now we can watch both styles of government in action in various countries of the world. Given the opportunity, is it not wise to see where people are happiest, where criminality is lowest and other such things and try and adjust the government in our countries towards something that clearly shows its qualities?

I sometimes look at other sailors' boats. Some are racing others are cruising. At times I notice a fine solution, like a spectra shackle or a canvas bucket. I go to my boat and improve what I might have there. Why should governments be run according to anything else than watching, thinking, learning and improving on what we already have?

Would you agree?

b.

[unclemack]

We tolerate the infinite selfishness, greed and deceit of the very young only because they know no better.

We send criminals to jail for acts proceeding from the same character traits.

Anyone care to offer a coherent argument that Capitalists are less selfish, greedy or dishonest than the other two groups?

[JFN]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Yes....but that IS my point....

I'm sorry but you don't have a point.

[spraygun]

Anyone can make a point here.But for so many of you,why must you insert some jab at a previous poster.Your postings already describe what kind of person you are.Why go to the next level?Your kind veiled insults are childish,only more cleverly worded.
Make your point and move on.

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[unclemack]

Originally Posted by LEOCAT66

Government has no business dictating how much anyone is paid by a private business owner and never has. Nor should they impose restrictions of any kind on, who to hire or not hire, smoking restrictions, handi capped parking spaces or access. All of these items and more restrict freedom. If someone does not like the way I do business they are totally free to do business where conditions are to their liking and there will be plenty of those around. Most of these dictates by government are about vote buying, and facilitating special interest.

This mindset, of government dictates, has now entered the world of cruisers, such as NO MORE ANCHORING HERE.

If I were a business owner in the US I'd demand very much more aggressive gun control before demanding the unfettered freedom to exploit my employees in whatever bigoted, racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic manner I wished...

That's if I were, obviously. No offence meant of course

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

................... There are companies that simply do not make a lot of money. Then I say low wages are OK and may be preferred to the alternative of having no job. But there are also huge international food chains that apparently make heaps of cash. It is very ambivalent when a company pays low wages 'giving the young the opportunity to learn jobs' while its owner and executives own villas in Antigua and private jets. Especially that young (and often not all that young) people flipping hamburgers are NOT learning anything. They are just flipping hamburgers. .............

It doesn't matter if the company's owners have private jets. If you have a retirement plan, the chances are that you, like me, are partial owners of several corporations.

Again, your wages reflect your skill and value to the company. A person doing a job that can be learned in one day should not expect a high rate of pay. If they want a higher income, they need to learn more valuable skills.