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Old 30-12-2008, 21:44   #1
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Not like it used to be

Ok, after reading so much wonderful advice and opinions on this site for some time, I feel like I have to put my 2 cents in (1.6 cents Canadian)
I want to sway the scales a little over to my side of the whole, "what is better arguements that I read on every topic available. Things like: Tiller or Wheel, Modern or old design boats, deep bilge or shallow bilge, hank or furler sails etc etc etc.

Ok so most 60's and 70's boats with tillers, deep bilges, hank on sails and overbuilt hulls are good quality, bombproof boats.
However, to some people they are not desireable. Some people like modern sugar spoon transems, in mast furling, wheel steering, shallow draft boats. I am very close to my father and spend a lot of time with him. One thing I have noticed: EVERYTHING OLD IS BETTER! EVERYTHING! Or so he believes. Which makes me question the validity of that concept.
I love my 1995 high production sailboat even though it goes against everything most old salts believe in.


So please reconsider your misconceptions on new technology just because they are different than what was the norm when you started sailing.
I am in my mid thirties now and maybe in 30 more years I'll be preaching how my in mast furling is so much more reliable than the new satelite laser guided thought controled sail reefing systems of the 2040s', but I hope not.
And maybe it's true, they don't build sailboats as heavy as they used to, but then again, is anything built as heavy as it used to be?

Just my nearly two cents worth.
Cheers.
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Old 30-12-2008, 21:52   #2
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Old 30-12-2008, 22:00   #3
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Everything has it's place. New technology meets new needs. Who knew 30 years ago that we would not consider leaving the house without a cell phone attached to us? Who new 50 years ago that a 65' boat could sail at over 10 kts with a crew of only one or two people, and would weigh less than 20 tons?
I won't say older is better. I will say my needs are often met more efficiently with older technology. I would still take a wood boat over a fiberglass boat any day. Not because it is better, faster, or more seaworthy, but because it is better for me. It meets my personal needs better than a plastic boat.
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Old 31-12-2008, 00:06   #4
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I like what Kai Nui said and to add my own infusion sometimes old is better some time not.

IMHO

It is the melding of the two that produce the functional and useful.

I remember the first digital watch my mother bought me from Sears and Robuck some 35 years a go, no forgetting to wind and loosing time yet what a piece of junk from todays standards..and who here would trade their spectra or stayset X for manila rope halyards and sheets? ..you would have to be sadistic person to rig your post 1940's boat in manilla rope today...Now we even have Dyneema to consider.
We will never agree on what is the best boat or boat type...and it really matters not... old timers will think your definition of heavy boats of the 60's and 70's a joke...and tell you a solid wood or steel hull is the only boat and plastic is for a childs bath toy...its all relative.

Yes we will continue to vacillate between praising pushing the envelope of lightweight construction to the outer limits and decrying the travesty of such folly..yet look at all the trickle down benefits we get from thoes ventures and other cutting edge endeavors...carbon fiber for one..epoxy resins..efficient keels..balanced rudders..EPIRB's..weather fax..GPS...AIS..on and on.

Things built to last are a dying breed in a way if we think of over built and heavy as a mandate to our mindset...yet there is hardly a day that goes buy that I dont apreciate the new lighter faster way verses the old heavy slow one.
Modern tools have taken months of work off of DIY projects on my boat..the internet has taken weeks off of research in the library or waiting for mail to first deliver the question and then receive a reply for information that holds a project at a standstill for lack of knowlage.

Modern cars are so far superior in every way except thickness of body metals and arguably in certain areas but not all, ease of repair, that you have to be in denial to think otherwise.

Your 60 and 70 vintage boats are falling by the wayside at just as rapid pace as the dreaded 80's vintage that is supposed be the black plague era of boat building...its all about maintenance and attention to details that keeps anything from returning to primordial soup.

Buy what makes you feel good, safe and content and dont begrudge the man who accomplishes 3 times what you do with half as much of your so called old time integrity.

No give me the modern materials and tried and true conservative yet edgy engineering with a dash of classic lines and Im a happy camper...

I would love to own an all wood heavy boat some day, but only because they speak to me in ways only wood boats can, not for considering them better in very many ways.

To each his own I say..Sail what you like and like what you sail.
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Old 31-12-2008, 02:17   #5
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"they don't build sailboats as heavy as they used to, but then again, is anything built as heavy as it used to be"?

The General public in this country is heavier than they use to be.

Seriously...You are seeing everything in black and white. A mixture of old and new makes for a great cruising boat. Take for example a Atkins full keel boat but with roller furling, radar, GPS and a watermaker.
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Old 31-12-2008, 04:47   #6
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No things aren't built like they used to be.
Tubes don't burn out in my radio.

I can carry a computer with more power than just about all the computers of the 60's added together and with it a bread box sized printer that will print, copy, and scan in color both for about $600 total.

My aluminum spars and wire rigging last longer without the maintenance of wood and rope.

My 1994 FRP is solid and sound and doesn't require scraping and painting every couple of years.

I have cordless power tools that I can use anywhere on the boat without running the inverter or generator.

Cars often go 1/4 million miles without overhaul.

Car tires go 50,000 or 60,000 miles.

I could go on, but yeap, they don't build 'em like they used to. Thank goodness.

George
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Old 31-12-2008, 05:32   #7
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Society's Ideal of Beauty

In an American history discussion group, the professor was trying to explain how society's ideal of beauty changes with time. "For example, he said, "take the 1921 Miss America. She stood five-feet, one-inch tall, weighed 108 pounds and had measurements of 30-25-32. How do you think she'd do in today's version of the contest?"

The class fell silent for a moment. Then one student piped up, "Not very well."

"Why is that?" asked the professor.

"For one thing," the student pointed out, "She'd be way too old..."
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Old 31-12-2008, 08:14   #8
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Society's Ideal of Beauty

In an American history discussion group, the professor was trying to explain how society's ideal of beauty changes with time. "For example, he said, "take the 1921 Miss America. She stood five-feet, one-inch tall, weighed 108 pounds and had measurements of 30-25-32. How do you think she'd do in today's version of the contest?"

The class fell silent for a moment. Then one student piped up, "Not very well."

"Why is that?" asked the professor.

"For one thing," the student pointed out, "She'd be way too old..."
LOL!!

And way too expensive to fix up in the long run.
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Old 31-12-2008, 08:38   #9
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It's not that old is better, but just possibly. This is what he is use to, and comfortable with? Just be glad you can spend time with him in anyway possible. There will come a time when you can't. Enjoy today with him......i2f
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Old 31-12-2008, 08:38   #10
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Global warming is going to strike any day now and that means boats will need to be totally re-designed because the water will rise and many boats will sink because of it.
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Old 31-12-2008, 09:07   #11
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So please reconsider your misconceptions on new technology just because they are different than what was the norm when you started sailing.
s.



For a few weeks I had to drive a 1968 mustang convertible (red, of course) it included some fst work doing some slides on gravel, fast acceleration as well as some time stuck in traffic.

All the dudes said how great the car was! Bollix! A new Korean car, or any other new small / midsize car is heaps better! Better steering, better handling, better windows, better engine, better fuel system etc etc etc.

Those same 30 or 40 years that have advanced car manufacture technology is equivalent to boat building.

Would you by a 30 year old car?
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Old 31-12-2008, 10:04   #12
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Mark, you can not jus compare CARS Vs. BOATS in such a basic manner...you jus cannot compare pears and apples.

I am myself an airline pilot and I would be making the same mistake by comparing Planes to Boats however when I carefully check the differences between a B36 and a CL41 I surely went for the last one.

Same if you give me a Boeing 727 or a spotless Airbus 320, having flown both extensively I will go for the first and I am NOT and old fat I guess, still in my early 30's
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Old 31-12-2008, 10:31   #13
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I actually feel comparing cars (or motorcycles) to boats in this discussion is very appropriate. There are composite wood boats out there with new rigging, electronics, new auxiliary engines etc that are still old designs, but meet current needs very efficiently. I will take a Harley over new Yamaha any day. The Yamaha is faster and more comfortable. It breaks down less, and it is not hundred year old technology, but, with the improvements to that technology, the Harley meets my needs. Aesthetically, it is far superior in my opinion. The composite boat, full keeled, double ended, meets my needs aesthetically. With aesthetics comes pride. With pride, repairs, and maintenance become more pleasurable. And so on... I ride my Harley for enjoyment, not just transportation. My wood boats, I have sailed for enjoyment, not just transportation or speed.
I will be the first to admit I would not want to have to rely on an old flat head Harley to ride the 3000 miles a month that I ride, and I would not have to rely on a sextant as my primary navigation tool. I would also not want to rely on hemp lines, but, I am all for a nice Carvel planked double ender, or a late model Harley.
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Old 31-12-2008, 10:46   #14
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Everybody is different. There is no such thing as a perfect boat for everyone. What we have is boats that appeal to individuals. I like the idea of Wood boats b/c with my skills I could fix anythign made of wood. OTOH I wouldn't consider having teak decks and try to minimize the amount of wood that I have on the outside of the boat so that I don't have to varnish. I like old things b/c they can be fixed rather than just thrown away. Whether it is b/c of all the time I spent fixing things with my father as a kid or b/c it seems to hurt my soul to throw something away b/c a small non replacable part has gone bad I don't know. Each person has a boat that(car,plane, or house) that works for them. You might keep that mustang b/c you can work on it as opposed to a new car where you need specialized tools. On my boat I try to keep things on the boat that I personally can fix. If I can't fix it or learn to fix it I don't like to have it on the boat.
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Old 31-12-2008, 11:11   #15
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IMHO, Strong is good , Heavy is not. The hull needs to be strong enough to not flex in a seaway or from the rigging. Making a hull reef proof shouldnt be a concern in my opinion. Heavy boats are wet and slow. It's amazing how many people like catamarans now, but a large group look down on a well built light mono. On the other hand, older design diesels are far better than the new lightweight diesels. Lets face it, they take an engine that puts out 20 HP at 2300 rpm and rate it at 40 HP because they can make it turn 3600 rpm. It's really just a 20hp engine by the old standard. Boat building technology has improved just like cars. Light is right!
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