No insurance, no survey - no survey, no insurance

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Sea Dreaming

Thats a distiction of a totally different kind. I am poor and invested a significant amount of my net worth into my boat. My loss, despite my lower initial outlay than others may do, would result in significant devistation in my funds,dreams, and possibly future security.
I cant't just walk away and dust my misfortune into the bin. Yes, despite my low balance account, I can still be sued and held accountable.

Your derelict guy scerario isnt about net worth as defined by "poor" and "middle class". That would be an indigent individual with no ties and no intention of creating any.

Actually I believe my explanation matches the original point. You are the one redefining "poor".

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by cyclepro

plus, they want to have the boat surveyed before coverage can take place.

Is there anybody on this forum that can give me a solution or some solid advice?

I use BoatUS insurance and they have been great. If the boat is not terribly expensive, they allow you to do a self survey. They give you a check list and ask for some photos. They can explain what they want but it is a very self explanatory arrangement.

There are other benefits they offer such as covering the entire year and not just the season. It is worth checking out. Good luck with your search.

[Manos1955]

just get a liability insurance it is cheap and you can pay every quarter
Most of the Marinas are happy with this insurance policy

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Sure it was the boat owners fault but when people do stupid things there are responses. The insurance requirement thins out a lot of the questionable owners...if they won't pay for insurance what else aren't they keeping up on?

Firstly the user of the services is probably already paying for the providers insurance in the providers charges and secondly there is a moral issue here, why should responsible owners be penalized as the result of the imposition of a convenient screening regime?

The vessel owner should be responsible for evaluating whether the vessel is seaworthy and structurally sound and the slip operator for providing a safe service. The alternative is that everyone carries expensive, all risk insurance and the major beneficiary of this is the insurance industry.

[zstine]

Progressive did not require a survey for our policy.... Short term.. well buy a year policy, then just cancel it and get a refund when your out of the yard.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

What is this "self insured"? Is it the same as not insured?

No, not necessarily. Though, in this case, probably.

There are people who have enough personal assets to cover any likely liability scenario, who choose not to buy insurance, but rather put their own assets at risk. For example, in Florida, if you post a $2 million bond (I believe that's the right number) then you are not required to carry liability insurance on your automobiles. Of course, very few people can do that, and even fewer choose to do so.

In this case, my guess is that the OP has no such assets and is just using the words "self-insured" to mean that he is not insured, and if he causes someone else injury then the injured party is just S-O-L.

As for marinas that require liability insurance, I would be willing to bet that the same sort of thing would apply. That is, if you were willing to post a million dollar bond, I'd bet that pretty much every marina out there would accept that in lieu of liability insurance.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

No, not necessarily. Though, in this case, probably.

There are people who have enough personal assets to cover any likely liability scenario, who choose not to buy insurance, but rather put their own assets at risk. For example, in Florida, if you post a $2 million bond (I believe that's the right number) then you are not required to carry liability insurance on your automobiles. Of course, very few people can do that, and even fewer choose to do so.

In this case, my guess is that the OP has no such assets and is just using the words "self-insured" to mean that he is not insured, and if he causes someone else injury then the injured party is just S-O-L.

As for marinas that require liability insurance, I would be willing to bet that the same sort of thing would apply. That is, if you were willing to post a million dollar bond, I'd bet that pretty much every marina out there would accept that in lieu of liability insurance.

Thank you Unknown to me here, but makes sense now.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Firstly the user of the services is probably already paying for the providers insurance in the providers charges and secondly there is a moral issue here, why should responsible owners be penalized as the result of the imposition of a convenient screening regime?

The vessel owner should be responsible for evaluating whether the vessel is seaworthy and structurally sound and the slip operator for providing a safe service. The alternative is that everyone carries expensive, all risk insurance and the major beneficiary of this is the insurance industry.

Errors and omissions insurance is often a function of how many claims you have. If you damage a lot of peoples boats and have a lot of claims, expect your insurance to go up even if you eventually win. It's certainly in the marina owners best interest to thin that out and it's in the responsible boat owners interest as that higher insurance rate will get passed on to the responsible boat owners.

Responsible owners aren't generally being penalized. It's still needed in case your engine fails and you coast your bowsprit thru the side of a gold platter in the next slip. The rule was always there but the owner hadn't been checking. He suddenly realized it was important and came down a bit hard as a result.

If you don't want to take out insurance, I don't want to cover your liability when you hit my boat. This is a standard requirement at pretty much every marina. Many times, it's just small print on the form you sign or in the contract which you would have to request a copy of but it's almost always there.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

No, not necessarily. Though, in this case, probably.

There are people who have enough personal assets to cover any likely liability scenario, who choose not to buy insurance, but rather put their own assets at risk. For example, in Florida, if you post a $2 million bond (I believe that's the right number) then you are not required to carry liability insurance on your automobiles. Of course, very few people can do that, and even fewer choose to do so.

In this case, my guess is that the OP has no such assets and is just using the words "self-insured" to mean that he is not insured, and if he causes someone else injury then the injured party is just S-O-L.

As for marinas that require liability insurance, I would be willing to bet that the same sort of thing would apply. That is, if you were willing to post a million dollar bond, I'd bet that pretty much every marina out there would accept that in lieu of liability insurance.

I'm curious how much does a $2million dollar bond cost? I know in other uses, you typically have to put up 10% of the bond amount plus a fee and they can lay claim to the remaining amount if there is an incident.

That would imply you pony up $200k plus an annual fee to the bond company and if things go to poo, they can come take the remaining $1.8million.

Self insurance rarely makes sense for an individual as a single claim can be too large to stomach.

Where self insurance starts to make sense is for large companies. If you have a company that owns and operates 10,000 company cars, you can pretty much guarantee there will be a few hundred accidents per year. At that scale, the law of averages allows you to get a pretty estimate of how many that will be an what the payouts will be.

Insurance companies do the same thing but add in a profit margin. If a big company self insures, they can pocket the profit margin.

I can all but guarantee the poster is not "self insured."


Edit: One exception is for small dollar items. If your new $500 computer dies immediately after opening the box, you can probably eat the $500 to go get a new one but extended warranties (ie: insurance against failure), have huge profit margins.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I'm curious how much does a $2million dollar bond cost?

I have absolutely no idea. I am not in the category of those who can afford to self-insure. I just know that it is an option that is available.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I can all but guarantee the poster is not "self insured."

That would be my guess, too.

[Rustic Charm]

Back to the origional post

If I owned a boat yard Or a marina, I wouldn't have uninsured boats in it either. Way too many things can go wrong. And for that matter I doubt my own insurance for the yard or marina would permit it either.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

What is this "self insured"? Is it the same as not insured?

When mentioned on forums mostly yes. Self insured is done by rich people who can cover the loss and damage, not insured is done by poor people who mostly can not cover the loss and damage and are too cheap or can not afford insurance.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

When mentioned on forums mostly yes. Self insured is done by rich people who can cover the loss and damage, not insured is done by poor people who mostly can not cover the loss and damage and are too cheap or can not afford insurance.

Many aspects of government is 'self insured' then. The police force, all of our schools, housing etc are all self insured. They pay an insurance company to manage the insurance scheme though.

But, as for boats, yes I'd imagine it just means you don't have insurance.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Many aspects of government is 'self insured' then. The police force, all of our schools, housing etc are all self insured. They pay an insurance company to manage the insurance scheme though.

But, as for boats, yes I'd imagine it just means you don't have insurance.

I used to work for a state govt several years ago...yes, they did self insure their cars (see my explanation for a large company for why it makes sense)

[Scott Berg]

Interesting discussion; as someone who worked for many years in the insurance industry (actuarial science and product development) as well as the marine industry, a few comments:

1) Almost everyone benefits from the protection of liability (protection and indemnity) insurance as a major loss can bankrupt you. Someone noted that the wealthy can absorb this and the poor walk away. It isn't so much that the poor walk away but that do to a lack of assets they are what is considered 'judgement proof.' You can't attach assets that don't exist and future income potential doesn't warrant the legal work to garnish it.

2) I have never, in 16 years of operating a marine repair business, seen a marina that didn't require insurance. Every time (and I do mean every time) we brought a boat to a yard to have it hauled they asked for both my business insurance and the boat owners insurance. While I'm sure there are yards somewhere who don't have insurance requirements I've never seen one and wouldn't want to be around one

3) True, some insurance companies might take on a risk without a recent survey, but you pay for that in higher premiums. Think about it; insurance is all risk management; introduce a new risk (unknown hull condition, for example) and you increase the risk premium. For convenience sake it might be worth it to some, but the really good marine companies want a real survey to start coverage.

4) Uninsured coverage is indeed expensive (usually mirrors your hull coverage). I've actually had a six figure claim under mine. It was an interesting experience and we were glad we had it. That said, it made us even more adamant that those who choose to keep their boats in marinas be well insured.

that's it for now...