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Old 01-08-2011, 22:44   #31
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

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Originally Posted by Skipmac
And again, why not fly? In the long run it will be cheaper, guaranteed.
It's not about money. Flying is not feasible, unless you know somewhere that is accessible by land in Can-Amerexico where TSAs (or the local equivalent) will not subject children and adults to degrading, immoral and scandalous naked body scanners, harmful radiation and potentially traumatic and definitely sinful arbitrary groping.

If you know of such an airport, by all means tell, tell, tell!
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Old 01-08-2011, 22:46   #32
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

hum...how many 11 year olds leave the faucet running :-) Crossing the atlantic at the wrong time, that is other then april-may, can have interesting weather. Not saying you can't have a lovely crossing in june or later, but I'd not risk my family on a named storm or a winter nor'easter. Me sure, my family no way!
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Old 01-08-2011, 22:46   #33
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

Sir, you should take a common carrier to your destination. I'm befuddled why this option wasn't obvious/acceptable to you (social, political, economical objections? huh?).
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Old 01-08-2011, 22:56   #34
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

There seems to be some sort of religious root to this situation. Could you not get in touch with a similar group and maybe get there assistance in relocating?
I think you are under the impression a boat will give you a level of freedom you cannot achieve on land. Perhaps it will. I too am hoping to achieve that freedom, but i understand that the world of authority gropers and political stick your nose in types are getting more by the day and not easily avoided. I would suggest playing the game until you have the experience to go where you want and the ability to support yourselves.
Boats are selling for peanuts here in the USA and after today's farce over the budget they may pay you to take the boat away. Maybe just one of you could take a flight and suffer the indignity of body searches to sort a boat and get it prepared where you would like to sail..
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Old 01-08-2011, 22:58   #35
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

So charter a cabin or two on a steam ship from the GPA in savannah to your destination, no body scanners there. and no experience required. sailing thru an ocean storm will be far more traumatic to everyone then a one minute body scanner.
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Old 01-08-2011, 23:26   #36
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

I've frequently found that round-trip overseas tickets are much cheaper than one-way tickets.
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Old 01-08-2011, 23:32   #37
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

COLUMBIA 34 Mk II sailboat on sailboatdata.com
1971 Columbia Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I am including the link to the one in MI because it has photos of the interior and because it is the only one that's not on the west coast.

If you did repeated searches over time you might find one for $10k.

This boat came to mind because of the interior volume given by the raised deck and beause of the number of berths.

There are 3 good berths in the main cabin (quarterberth, settee bench and the back of the settee folds up to make a pilot berth), plus another decent one if you put up lee cloths for the deep part of the u-shaped dinette. Underway the v-berth will be unusable (too much motion) so everyone will be bunking in the main cabin. Sub divide the settee and maybe also the pilot berth so 2 kids can be accomodated in each. One adult will have to be awake on watch at night in shifts, the dinette and quarterberth will hold the other 2, but that leaves one kid in need of a berth.

Get taller lifeline stantions and attach netting all around the deck to help secure the kids.

For each leg of the trip you will need 1 gal per person per day, times 1.5 for a safety factor. That gallon is to drink, wash yourself, wash your laundry, and all other needs. Figure out the length of each leg of the trip in nautical miles. Divide the longest leg by 100 to get the longest duration. Lets say it's 2500nm, which means 25d, times 8g times 1.5 which means 300gal tankage. Even if you skimped a bit because the kids don't drink quite as much you are still talking 265-275gal. Plastic tanks won't cut it, too much space lost at the margins for the amount stored, you will need to build several tanks right into the boat yourself. See Atom Voyages | Voyages Aboard the Sailboat Atom - Integral Watertank Construction.

You will need to research the route. Off the top of my head I would go GA, Mass., Azores, Canary Isl., Cape Verde, Liberia, Sao Tome, Namibia, S Africa, Madagascar. References would be World Cruising Routes, Ocean Passages of the World and Atlas of Pilot Charts (Last available free online f/ USGov't). You will need to check on political stability for all of the continental Africa stops (including Madagascar) except for S. Africa. Don't even consider the Med and the Red sea as a route.

There are a whole list of other things to do to the boat for going offshore. You get to the point of actually buying a boat I will point you towards a whole lot more to do and that's going minimalist. Even going minimalist, count on spending another $5kmin, $8-10k more likely for outfitting.

If you had $40-50k I would say a Cal 40 which has plenty of berths.

You're right there are no Utopias in this world. When I was younger I lived overseas for 3 years, 3 places in 2 countries. One of the things I discovered is that these places weren't any easier to be moral in, they just required a different set of moral compromises to get by.

With $20k, and 2yr or 3-4yr and a bit less money I could see this working OK. I don't see this working with your budget and time frame.

You want to minimize the temptations of this society, drive out to the sticks in Kansas, Nebraska, Colorado, rent a bit of property and see what you can make of it. Trying something like that here would be tough enough, doing it without the local language or the local culture would make it almost impossible.

Consider too the kids education and that if they stay there long enough that will become home and they will have no desire to return to the US.

Luck
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Old 02-08-2011, 03:23   #38
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

You might consider flying out of Montreal Trudeau International Airport. There are direct flights to Europe as a first leg to your destination. The Canadian crossing guards ask reasonable questions and expect reasonable answers. Let them know you are not leaving any of your possessions in Canada.

It also looks like it may not be long before Texas law makes unwarranted invasive airline searches illegal.

Many people want to start a new life in another place for many different reasons. You don't have to feel any different and don't need to necessarily explain your rationale. A cruising lifestyle, I'm told is for people who want freedom and independence. Also I understand it requires self reliance and self responsibility. I've found this is a great site to learn practical things about the way to buy a boat, what to look out for, how to get training and where to get more information.

A sailboat can be a pretty powerful symbol - one that I can certainly relate to. Trouble with symbols can be when we over-interpret or take them too literally. If your symbol helps you find the answers you need then its done its job. But if your symbol pushes you to take risks that don't stand up to your objectives, for example protecting your children from harm, then my advice would be to step back and take a breath. Take things as they come and do the things that can be done now to give you the maximum flexibility to accomplish your goals, like getting everyone passports, saving money for your journey, and investigating the options.

Why not come to Australia? Yes we have drinkers, gamblers and carousers here but generally people here are largely upbeat, positive and generally take a reasonable view of things. Best to start migration before your 45.
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Old 02-08-2011, 06:09   #39
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Short hops...

When short hops are mentioned many would expect them to be around 50 nautical miles, about the maximum a small sailboat could travel during daylight.
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Old 02-08-2011, 07:01   #40
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

1500 mile "hop". Do you know how fast a sailboat goes? If you average 5 knots (you won't) and keep going 24 hrs a day your talking 12.5 days per hop. Plan for 20 days.

WATER: The average person needs (At least) 1.5 gal of water per day, that's 240 gal of water per hop. Temps go up, you need more water. I haven't seen a 40 foot boat with that much water stowage, normal for that size is MAX 100 gal. And you need extra in case you hit the doldrums and sit for a week. (That is also an extra 2000 lbs to store some place)

FOOD: You will need at least 20 days food for each person, or 160 days of food. Another 1000 lbs.

Safety equipment: Unless you plan on drowning if you have problems (Like hitting floatsom in the middle of the Atlantic) and you sink the boat, you will need life rafts (Plural) each raft holds 4 people, 8 people will sink it, or be so over stressed you will pray that you drown. PFDs would work for about a day. (If you have to ask what a PFD is then you better buy a ranch in Montana and forget the boat.)

BETTER CHOICE
Book passage on a tramp steamer. To do this you have to find "The Fat Man" in Savannah. Get the Maltese Falcon to him and say Humphrey sent you.

Try this link: How to: Travel by cargo ship | Matador Network

For the money you will get safe passage, good food and a cabin. NO cruise director and no sight seeing trips. You will not be subject to the TSA airline search requirements. I have travelled aboard freighters as a passenger, the trip is very boring so have stuff for your kids to do. If you can't control them and they interrupt the operation of the ship the Captain can, and will leave you at the next port. Remember the business of the ship is to get the cargo to it's destination, you are a supernumerary. But however inconvenient a cargo ship is, compared to what you suggest it would be heaven.
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Old 02-08-2011, 07:22   #41
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

Quote:
Originally Posted by David.Freeman View Post
will not subject children and adults to degrading, immoral and scandalous naked body scanners, harmful radiation and potentially traumatic and definitely sinful arbitrary groping.
I knew this thread should come with a loony alert.



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Old 02-08-2011, 07:46   #42
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

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It's not about money. Flying is not feasible, unless you know somewhere that is accessible by land in Can-Amerexico where TSAs (or the local equivalent) will not subject children and adults to degrading, immoral and scandalous naked body scanners, harmful radiation and potentially traumatic and definitely sinful arbitrary groping.
Well you're far more likely to die on that worn-out boat than suffer even the slightest harm from the body scanner. I also humbly suggest that wherever you go, you'll still be in the world with all its problems, and they'll probably be worse for you than they are in the U.S.

Given your budget, you'll spend every last dime you've saved on that boat and still be stuck exactly where you are, because it won't be safe to sail.

I think you'd be better off trying to learn how to live in the world without being of it, than trying to flee it.
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Old 02-08-2011, 07:47   #43
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

I get the impression from your original post and subsequent posts that you are not happy with the general average USA society these days. And I would suggest strongly that what you are contemplating is akin to "jumping from the frying pan into the fire."
- - First off, there are areas and communities within this hemisphere that might be much more compatible to your idea of how you want your family to live. There are significant communities of Amish and Mennonites located in the USA, Canada, Mexico and some Caribbean countries. Each of these communities are designed to maximize the simple ways of life and minimize interaction with the possibly morally corrupt general population.
- - And you can get to them by automobile with no need of flying or interacting with TSA.
- - I was recently in Merida Mexico in the Yucatan region of Mexico and the life there is very simple, moral and safe. The area is considerably off the path from Central America to the USA so drug crime is virtually non-existent. And there is a significant Mennonite community there that has historical roots in the area. In all of Mexico there are over 80,000 Mennonites. They live in several areas, particularly in the states of Chihuahua and Durango and the Yucatan. And they have been in Mexico since 1922.
- - You mentioned Madagascar as a destination - I would suggest some serious in-depth studying of that country before heading there. Currently it is a military dictatorship with brutal policies and a lot of civil unrest. It is noted in reports that the local population is hostile to foreigners in general and refugees in particular. National Geographic recently did a article about the place in relation to the wildlife but also discussed the socio-economic and political conditions there. And they are despicable. The country is also anti-immigration.
- - I pick up a sense that you are caught up by the very common idea that the "grass is greener on the other side." Unless you and your family have lived a significant number of years outside your country, that is a very unrealistic assumption.
- - The grass is not greener - it is just different - and most times very different. And that difference is generally very difficult for folks who have been living in the USA for more than a generation to deal with. In places like Madagascar and 3rd World countries in general the local language has no word/expression for the concept of "human rights" because that idea simply doesn't exist. Life is basic and brutal. Check out "Ex-Pat" forums to get an idea of what life will be there. See: Madagascar Expatriates Forums, Madagascar Expats - Allo' Expat Madagascar
You will notice that there are minimal answers to many asked questions most probably because there are very few "ex-pats" living there.
- - A previous poster mentioning the movie "Mosquito Coast" which I think is pretty much on the mark with what you may be dreaming of. Rent or get the movie and have the whole family watch it carefully before you make any decisions to burn your bridges with your current lifestyle.
- - And remember, not matter how economically disadvantaged (poor) you are in the USA you will be regarded as a "wealthy American" in a 3rd World country. And nothing you do will change their minds.
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Old 02-08-2011, 07:53   #44
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

My question to the OP is "have you ever entered another country?" If you do that often enough the TSA full body scanner will soon look like a cakewalk. When you enter the no-man's land between one country and another all bets are off. Fortunately most of the time that experience goes well with no incident. But never forget that it can and does go bad on a moment's notice and when that happens you have virtually no rights. And it can go bad through no fault of yours - if the officer in charge had burnt toast for breakfast and decides to punish you then you are going to have a bad entry experience guaranteed.

As everybody else has stated with varying degrees of emphasis, the OP plan is BAD. If the goal is to leave the US there are dozens if not hundreds of ways to do this at lower cost with greater security.
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:07   #45
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Re: No Experience, but Need to Make a Voyage - Advice Requested

Read what was just posted by Lookingforcruiser, Osirissail and Bobofthenorth and consider it very carefully. Very wise advise and I wish I could have said it half as well.

One line I think bears repeating, "learn how to live in the world without being of it".

Running away and looking for a better life outside is not going to bring you peace and happiness, this can only come from within.
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