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Old 31-12-2010, 08:20   #1
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Newbie Boat Size / Model Advice ?

This is going to be a bit of a winded Question but Thanks to all that reply and Suffer through this total Noob Questioning.

Im saving up $10,000can for a used late 70's to early 80's 27-32 foot used Sailboat and Outboard for a Live aboard Cruiser. Planing on Taking Sailing Coastal Lessons for $2000 then the long distance ones and Sailing with me and my Wife, From Vancouver along the Coast of North America to Mexico and The top of South America for 4-5months Vacation. Planing on Staying Close to shore for emergencies, i.e 100-200km off mainland Max. Any Ideas for Boats, Size and Model, So far from research online and on here looking into getting a Catalina 27', Bayliner 32', Macgregor 26M, or possibly something around those sizes in a hunter. I need something that has enough Ballast in the bottom So its not going to flip over easy, and handles half decent in rough coastal winds if it has too. Any Advice from some More Seasoned Sailers would be Greatly appreciated.

Thanks Captain_Shawn
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Old 31-12-2010, 08:41   #2
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Well so far you've named boats to stay well clear of for what you have in mind...
Maybe an Alberg, Islander, Newport or Pearson in the 30ft range... or Tartan...
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Old 31-12-2010, 08:47   #3
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Before getting into specifics, I reccomend that you make some more decisions regarding vessel type.

As an example, fiberglass boats from the sixties and seventies are notorious for having a lot of extra glass in them. The manufacturers back then were just learning about the material, and were conservative. Most of these boats were designed to CCA rules, which favor overhangs and narrow beams. You wind up with a heavy, seakindly boat that likes to heel, goes to weather well, and is slow.

Newer IOR boats are more dinghy like in hull form, tend to pound to weather, but are faster. Their laminations are typically thinner.

This is just one trade off. I favor a full keel, partly because I sail in Maine, and my boat doesn't foul pot warp. I also like the hull integrity. Others will certainly differ, and will (rightly) point out the small interior volume of my old B32. I don't mind it because I like camping out.

A narrow deep keel with a detached rudder is more manuverable, more efficient, (faster) and more prone to damage from groundings.

My point is that it would be smart to make some basic choices of this nature before you go looking at specific models. We all get emotional about boats, or we wouldn't be here. Best to knock out some solid requirements before you visit a boat that you fall in love with.

By the way, I agree with the previous poster. I like boats known for hull integrity, seakindly behavior, and a robust rig. Of course, these are more decisions that you have to make.
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Old 31-12-2010, 09:01   #4
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27-32 feet as a liveaboard will be....cozy. And with a a $10k budget, it will most suredly be a fixer upper in the best case scenario and a leaky pit in the worst case scenario.

While it can be done, it wont be a comfortable life. No way would I take a $10k Catalina 27 type vessel with an outboard up to 100 miles offshore unless it was completely overhauled, thats just not the design purpose of these coastal and lake sailing boats.

Listen, I get that you want to participate in the cruising dream...but your budget seems unreasonable small for such an adventure. Some will say go early...go now. But hey, I'd rather go in a bit more seaworth of a boat...otherwise its likely you'll be living a hobos life on the water.
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Old 31-12-2010, 09:57   #5
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Exploring the Options Thanks for the Ongoing advice Everyone

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Well so far you've named boats to stay well clear of for what you have in mind...
Maybe an Alberg, Islander, Newport or Pearson in the 30ft range... or Tartan...
Im new at this but I suggested a macgregor 26m as a promo video I saw with them testing a new one on youtube in that year range had it flipped over and still floating enough to pull it back over and them sailing it in 10ft swells with it leaning pretty far to the side but no sign of tipping in some really crappy conditions. The Catalina 27 is a Really common boat up here and there was a post here before about a book on best small boats to cruise the world in and that along with the Alberg were named in it that I can remember will link to that if I can find it. Not sure About Alber, Newport or Person Dont see much of that in Coastal BC common boat manufacturs here Are Hunter, Bayliner, Catalina those 3 are common as dirt up here Specially Bayliner. Example

1979 Catalina 27 $11,500 - Vancouver Sailboats For Sale - Kijiji Vancouver Canada.

Sailboat Bayliner Buccaneer 32ft - $8500 (False Greek) o.b.o. - Vancouver Sailboats For Sale - Kijiji Vancouver Canada.

Not as Knowledgeable As I should be But Ive been Drolling over these 2 for quite awhile
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Old 31-12-2010, 10:11   #6
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Size, Wieght, Inboard Vs Outboard, Trailerable or not?

I like the idea of being able to Swap Out Used or New Outboards better then working on and Rebuilding Inboard YanMar and such Diesel Inboards. Dont get me wrong though As far as rebuilding a boat I have access to Dry Dock and power for 200 a month, I can Work with Fiberglass pretty good Re lots of experience building/repairing automotive Panels and Custom speaker boxes for Cars. I can Rebuild an Inboard no Problem, Ive worked on and Rebuilt Various Automotive Motors including Small block chevys, fords, and Done Repair work to Newer Motors on BMW top ends etc.. for more newer exotic crap. I need something that Doesn't Break the Budget on Fuel, I.E. speed Not a big deal, I just need a Decent Performing boat not a Race Sailboat that Doesnt weigh a ton with a bunch Concrete Ballast if Im using the Term right but isnt so Light it will Flip over to easily. Im willing to Sacrifice it ever being Trailerable to Move if I have too, but preferably if I end up with a 27' it would be nice if you could move it with a one ton pick up and a triple axle trailer if need be. Going to Be doing lots of Coastal Island hoping around Vancouver island coastal waters and over to the Mainland for Practice while Im learning for the First year or so till Im Confident enough to attempt such a trip.

Sorry for the Rambling but Lots of Questions and advice needed, and My sailing Experience wise is little to none. Powerboats thats a different story all together

Thanks to all Captain_Shawn
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Old 31-12-2010, 10:21   #7
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Shawn... your in a tough place to buy a cheap good boat.. just been nosing around the sites and its pricey up your way...
As for my opinion.. take it with a pinch of salt.. I've never sailed those waters.. sooner or later someone will come along who's familiar with the area and can maybe steer you right...
Whichever way... good sailing and may 2011 be all you hope for...
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Old 31-12-2010, 10:39   #8
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Outboards can work, of course. But diesels, properly cared for, (clean oil, clean fuel) are very, very reliable. They are efficient, and their weight is down low toward the middle of the boat, a good place for it to be. The water pump, alternator and starter are all right there. Believe me, I'm no mechanic, but I feel comfortable with such a simple machine. (not the injectors.) Also, I figure about 3,000 hours before overhaul if I do what I'm supposed to do. Diesel fuel is not volatile, and the fumes are very unlikely to explode. I could go on, but just think about the prevelance of inboards on boats of this size.
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Old 31-12-2010, 10:53   #9
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good point Maine but Personally Im not as Adept to working on Diesels as I am With Gasoline motors and Screwing around with Long Balanced Driveshafts hooked up to Props outside the boat and Various seals sounds like a pain in the ass Would sooner just bolt the outboard onto the boat in a way it can still piviot properly to steer a bit and just hook up the Fuel line to the tank in a worse case it doesnt get any easier then that. As far as fuel Blowing up, Ill Light My Cigars after Im done working on the engine compartment lol Used outboards up here are Fairly Affordable Specially in the 7-10hp range Ie like not more then a 1000 and if they run ok I can change the oil and do a basic tune up on that thing with a repair manual if I have to Np.
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:04   #10
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Howdy and welcome to CF
Just wanted to pipe up and recommend more research links. Here is a great site that compares stats of different model sailboats including capsize ratio and motion comfort. The Macregor is not known for quality but a fun little sailor, they also have a wicked motion comfort rating so she would be very uncomfortable in anything other than good weather (MHO).
There ARE good boats out there for around your price. Look to the old Albergs, Tartans, and Islanders as suggested above. I bought a Pacific seacraft 25 for 5 grand, good deals are there to be had just do your research, be patient, learn as much as you can. Your adventure has already begun, enjoy the thrill of the hunt and I hope you find just what you are looking for.
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:42   #11
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I have to agree with many of the posters. The boats you named in your original post would be at the bottom of my list. They are far too light, in displacement and construction for me to even consider. Also, I think you will find that they are severely lacking in storage space.

About 16 yrs ago I was looking for my first boat and I admit looking at much the same list as you are now contemplating. Fortunately, a friend talked me out of it. He explained that the boats were basically day sailors or perhaps good enough for a week's trip but that I would soon be unhappy and would have to go through the hassle of selling and paying taxes, etc. within a year to upgrade. I took his advice and was really glad. I got my first boat, a Morgan 32 and was very pleased. I also looked at the Pearson 303 and the Sabre 28. All good solid boats. In all I spent a year picking the brains of everyone I could, I volunteered to crew the weekend races at a local yacht club and observed different boats and interrogated their owners before I narrowed my selection. At my marina there is a Sabre 28, a Cape Dory 30 ketch rig, an Allied Princess ketch, an Islander 33 with Atomic 4 gas engine, and a Pearson 303. I would go cruising in any of them. I would stay away from racing boats simply because of their light displacement and lack of storage and tankage. My Morgan 32 displaced 11,000 lbs and was much more comfortable than comparably sized boats that displaced 7,000 - 8,000 lbs. My current boat displaces 23,000 lbs and everyone that has been on board in stinky weather has commented on how well she rides. I also tend to favor a full keel but that's a bit more personal. It may be a bit more difficult to find but if you really prefer gas to diesel, you might look for a classic cruiser with the venerable Atomic 4. You can still get parts and complete rebuilt engines and yet because many are leery of gas, the boats with them are going to be less expensive than a comparable boat with diesel.

Check with your library for back issues of Cruising World and such, they often had articles on what they called "Classic Plastic". I would even more strongly recommend you find or subscribe to a magazine called "Good Old Boat", you will be amazed at how they mesh with what you're looking for. By the way, they have a website. I've let all my sailing subscriptions lapse except for that one.

You are in for a fun time but take your time and find someone to keep the stars in your eyes just a bit in focus. I'm sure you'll do just fine.

Rich
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Old 01-01-2011, 22:35   #12
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Im new at this but I suggested a macgregor 26m as a promo video I saw with them testing a new one on youtube in that year range had it flipped over and still floating enough to pull it back over and them sailing it in 10ft swells with it leaning pretty far to the side but no sign of tipping in some really crappy conditions. The Catalina 27 is a Really common boat up here and there was a post here before about a book on best small boats to cruise the world in and that along with the Alberg were named in it that I can remember will link to that if I can find it. Not sure About Alber, Newport or Person Dont see much of that in Coastal BC common boat manufacturs here Are Hunter, Bayliner, Catalina those 3 are common as dirt up here Specially Bayliner. Example

1979 Catalina 27 $11,500 - Vancouver Sailboats For Sale - Kijiji Vancouver Canada.

Sailboat Bayliner Buccaneer 32ft - $8500 (False Greek) o.b.o. - Vancouver Sailboats For Sale - Kijiji Vancouver Canada.

Not as Knowledgeable As I should be But Ive been Drolling over these 2 for quite awhile
Shawn,
I own a beautiful 1985 Catalina 27, which is very well kept - inboard diesel, head and shower, galley, many extras installed (GPS, autopilot, 3 batteries, fridge, more ...). I love her and she serves me really well as a weekend cruiser but I would never think of using her for a trip you intend to make without serious modifications (see Preparing a Catalina 27 for offshore) as this type of boat was designed for a short, a few days maybe, coastal cruising. Although there are some out there who do/did extensive cruising, lived aboard (Sovereignty: A Unique Catalina 27 (hull # 65) - Sovereignty & Personal Freedom), or even circumnavigated in Catalina 27 (Patrick Childress in Juggernut - Straight from the Log of Juggernaut | Where is Brick House?), I personally would be looking elsewhere. Just my experience/opinion sailing my Catalina 27 for past 4 seasons.
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Old 01-01-2011, 23:12   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain-Shawn28
This is going to be a bit of a winded Question but Thanks to all that reply and Suffer through this total Noob Questioning.

Im saving up $10,000can for a used late 70's to early 80's 27-32 foot used Sailboat and Outboard for a Live aboard Cruiser. Planing on Taking Sailing Coastal Lessons for $2000 then the long distance ones and Sailing with me and my Wife, From Vancouver along the Coast of North America to Mexico and The top of South America for 4-5months Vacation. Planing on Staying Close to shore for emergencies, i.e 100-200km off mainland Max. Any Ideas for Boats, Size and Model, So far from research online and on here looking into getting a Catalina 27', Bayliner 32', Macgregor 26M, or possibly something around those sizes in a hunter. I need something that has enough Ballast in the bottom So its not going to flip over easy, and handles half decent in rough coastal winds if it has too. Any Advice from some More Seasoned Sailers would be Greatly appreciated.

Thanks Captain_Shawn
Hi mate i just purchased a roberts 28 steel shoal draught tri keel setup needs lot of cleaning up was neglected few yrs $12,000 i can live aboard as is in comfort she has full size bed bow good kitchen head with shower pressure hot water gas oven plan is to sail to lord howe in a few months im taking a regatta int champ so in safe hands i have only been sailing a year or so self taught in an half ton racer cruiser We Had Some Moments ! I remember when we got a storm front syd hbr i never knew how to sheet out even we heeled like a volvo ocean racer my son and i ,he loved it i almost had heart attack . i now now sheets and boom vangs cunninghams setc,.. Hav a go dont be afraid but dont be stupid u say 100 nm offshore ? My yacht is solid as a rock and would not like to try 100 nm run to shelter in rising x seas with no expertise stay in close to the hard good prep work in navigation and plan ya stops at night or sail well offshore heave to sllep night taking 4 watches any longer and u may sleep on the watch !! Roberts are best for creature comfort headroom etc but speed is no there im told goin out in week so ill tell ya how she runs the new yacht Hayley roberts28a shoal draught steel. James wilson excelpest2002
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Old 01-01-2011, 23:56   #14
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The MacGregor has water as ballast, not lead. Great for shedding weight when you want to trailer, not so great for sailing upwind. Yes their ad shows the boat doesn't roll over when knocked over 90 degrees, but how easy or hard it is to get there isn't addressed, also offshore waves can shove you more than 90 degrees over. Many boats designed more for offshore work want to roll back upright from 120 or more degrees over.

The Vigor book talking about Catalina 27s, IIRC the chapter starts with, "No don't laugh." He says it is a candidate because there are so many out there that all the faults are known so you can beef up the areas needed.

Our club accepted a Bayliner once as a donation. The person who went to pick it up got so disgusted with its sailing abilities that within 20 minutes he fired up the engine and motored the rest of the way.


One of the problems with outboards is they are so far aft and the props are so close to the surface that most sailboats with outboards can't motor if there is any wave action since the prop spends a lot of time out of the water in those conditions. Admittedly usually when there are waves there is wind and you can sail, but sometimes being able to motor is nice.

An aside: My friend just did the single hand transpac this year in his Olson 30, he left the outboard home. Even when the high rolled over on top of him on the trip back he was doing 50-75 mile days. And no you don't want an Olson 30 for cruising.


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Old 02-01-2011, 13:48   #15
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G'Day mate,

Well, in the traditions of CF, everyone is being nice about your question. I'm gonna do the dirty:

If you are really serious about your itinerary (down the coast of N.A. all the way, the boats that you mention are simply not suitable. You would be in real danger of loosing boat and life. The coastal trip from BC to say southern Calif is one that has brought far better vessels with far more experienced crews to grief. DON'T do it!

Yes, a Cat 27 has circumnavigated, but only after extensive modifications, and even then it was marginal.

If you were only going to sail in the protected waters of BC, and were careful about your weather, any of these very light-duty boats would work ok. That's why, as you report, they are "common as dirt" in your area.

Incidentally, your inexperience is really showing when you propose to sail to South America (and return?) in 4 to 5 months. Not on, mate... completely out of the realm of reality.

I'm sorry to sound so negative, but what you are suggesting is truly a life threatening proposal, and I'd hate to see you die out there off Cape Flattery or Mendicino.

So, with your schedule and your budget, let me suggest that you do buy one of the available boats (after a LOT more research), learn to sail her, and spend your 4 or 5 months cruising in the Straights. It is one of the world's best cruising grounds, with scenery, anchorages galore, great wildlife and fishing. In fact, three of our good friends have just sailed all the way from Australia to cruise in that area (and none of them were in Catalina 27's!).

Don't give up the idea, but don't kill yourself or your wife in the process!

Cheers and good luck,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Morning Cove, NSW, Oz
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