Newbie Boat Size / Model Advice ?

[Surrymark]

Consistent good advice, here, and Jim and Ann summed it up: don't prematurely terrify yourselves, and others. Those boats you mentioned, and a lot of other new-style boats, are designed, as are many houses, from the inside out, and for the greatest number of "features" for the money. In houses this approach can lead mainly to something homely (not homey) to look at. Boats live by their outsides, and sea-kindly shapes can keep you from losing your insides.
First, take the advice and have a great time sailing around your home port. There's a lifetime of adventure there. Then reconsider your budget. In soundly- built and sea-designed Cape Dories, for example, ten grand might get you a rough 27', but a boat in good condition for $15,000 to $18,000 would save you a lot of money in the long run. Bristols are also Alberg designs, usually a bit older, often with more catching-up to do. Then, even after you get a good boat, there's all the learning about what a big wave can break, and how even a good condition boat has to be made ready for blue water.
Have fun, mates. You'll be writing this same sort of response soon.

[ozskipper]

I think you are getting the main school of thought from everyone here so far. My two cents is that you start with a cheaper, perhaps trailerable boat as a "get to know sailing' boat.

A trailer sailer would be a great way to start as you can tow it from location to location -even mexico. But they are only good for limited coastal trips and pretty much anything you want inshore.

They are good for weekending and even up to a week. But this will give you valuable experience learning to be the captain of your own boat. During the same time get a few coastal rides on OPBs (other peoples boats) so you can get a feel for what it is like out there. You will gain experience in navigation, anchoring, pilotage, victualling - all the things you will be doing in your offshore boat. But you will have an edge in the long term.

In a couple of years sell the TY and put the money towards the bigger boat. (just not a 26m imho)

Cheers
Oz

[Captain-Shawn28]

Well Thank you To Everyone on this post with Replying Very Happy to be getting a lot of Honest Feedback. My Sailing Skills are next to None and Right now My Main Concerns are Saving up the money for the Boat, Been Watching and Reading Everything Sailing I can Get my hands on, Playing on Taking some Day Sailing at a school in the next Couple months Too get some hands on Experience before I take a Coastal Cruising course this summer. After a lot of Consideration, I just want a good Size Live Aboard Cruiser, At a decent price Ie 5000-10,000 max Dont care if I have to Do a lot of work on it as long as the damm thing holds water the motor works and it sails after that Im ok. Theres been a few decent examples IE wondering if a San Jaun 24 is a piece of crap or not cause they go for about 2500-4000 up here around year 76-78 commonly. Think I should just take Some lessons Practice Coastal Cruising then Buy a better boat with A Leaded Keel and around the 32 ft range after. Any Ideas and info Are Greatly appreciated.

Thanks Everyone

Captain Shawn

Coming Soon Yuppies Beware lol

[dingoman]

At 1oK I would get a beat up Westsail 32, or a Cal 28, or Ericson 28. The old ones are thick.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by Captain-Shawn28

Well Thank you To Everyone on this post with Replying Very Happy to be getting a lot of Honest Feedback. My Sailing Skills are next to None and Right now My Main Concerns are Saving up the money for the Boat, Been Watching and Reading Everything Sailing I can Get my hands on, Playing on Taking some Day Sailing at a school in the next Couple months Too get some hands on Experience before I take a Coastal Cruising course this summer. After a lot of Consideration, I just want a good Size Live Aboard Cruiser, At a decent price Ie 5000-10,000 max Dont care if I have to Do a lot of work on it as long as the damm thing holds water the motor works and it sails after that Im ok. Theres been a few decent examples IE wondering if a San Jaun 24 is a piece of crap or not cause they go for about 2500-4000 up here around year 76-78 commonly. Think I should just take Some lessons Practice Coastal Cruising then Buy a better boat with A Leaded Keel and around the 32 ft range after. Any Ideas and info Are Greatly appreciated.

Thanks Everyone

Captain Shawn

Coming Soon Yuppies Beware lol

San Juan 24 is an IOR race boat. It can be used for cruising but it has drawbacks. When I used to see them for sale they always came with 10-15 jibs, there's a reason for that. There was a time when it was very beneficial to your handicap to have a small mainsail and jib area above 100% was free, so the designers put small mains and huge jibs on. This means you're always changing jibs, reefing the main is relatively unimportant. Also tortured hull shapes got you a better rating. Basically off the wind you're working hard to steer the thing where you want to go. I was cruisiing a friend's San Juan 24, not racing, not excessive sail up, and a 2 foot wave lifted the stern enough that it slewed around and accidentally jibed. They're fairly round bottomed so they sail heeled over 20 + degrees. On the plus side these boats take very little wind to reach hull speed and there was a large one design class that made the boat fun to race, particularly since it took skill to prevent downwind wipeouts when overpowered.

John

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by dingoman

At 1oK I would get a beat up Westsail 32, or a Cal 28, or Ericson 28. The old ones are thick.

It is hard to imagine how beat up a westsail 32 would have to be to go for 10K$. Cal or Eric 28... maybe so. But there are really heaps of boats that would fit the quoted needs, so an open mind will aid in bargain hunting.

Cheers,

Jim

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Captain-Shawn28

Im saving up $10,000can for a used late 70's to early 80's 27-32 foot used Sailboat and Outboard for a Live aboard Cruiser. Planing on Taking Sailing Coastal Lessons for $2000 then the long distance ones and Sailing with me and my Wife, From Vancouver along the Coast of North America to Mexico and The top of South America for 4-5months Vacation. Planing on Staying Close to shore for emergencies, i.e 100-200km off mainland Max. Any Ideas for Boats, Size and Model, So far from research online and on here looking into getting a Catalina 27', Bayliner 32', Macgregor 26M, or possibly something around those sizes in a hunter.

With C$10k your options will probably be at the lower end of the size range mentioned. Actually you will either have to wait for an extended period and get lucky finding a good condition boat in that price range or you will have to get a boat that needs a bit of work.

As Cal40John mentions, the Mac26 and Bayliner are not at all appropriate in any kind of seas. And as he says you are not going to SAmerica and back in 4-5mo. I would suggest something a little more limited, but ambitious none the less to start. Consider taking a couple months to sail down to the south end of Puget Sound, then seveal more months to sail back up around Vancouver Island (counter clock-wise, that direction is hard enough, the other way is truely brutal.) Do Puget Sound first, you really want the experience before trying to tackle the back side of Vancouver Island.

With a C$10k budget the trick is finding a decent boat for $5k-8k, leaving you $2-5k to outfit. You will then need to have travelling money too.

I would look at a Cal28, Cascade 29 or a Triton 28 (Aeromarine preferable, but Pearson is fine too), all have headroom for anyone under 6' and will cost $4-10k in OK shape with the Cascade being most expensive, and the Triton possibly a bit higher on average than the Cal. As John mentioned it would be a push to take the Catalina offshore but if you are doing a more limited Puget Sound and around Vancouver Island cruise you could make do with a lot of work on the boat.
CAL 28 Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com
CASCADE 29 Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com
TRITON (AEROMARINE) Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com
TRITON (PEARSON) Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com
CATALINA 27 Sailboat details on sailboatdata.com

Cal advantages
a)raised deck giving great volume below for a 28' boat.
b)quarter berths maximising use of space
c) probably a bit faster than the Triton
d) probably has outboard freeing storage space under cockpit.
e) Masthead rig

Cascade advantages
a) quarter berths maximising use of space
b) probably the fastest by a small margin
c) Probably has inboard engine giving better motoring performance in waves. Normally the inboard would be more reliable than the outboard too but the Cascade is likely to have a 40-50 yr old Atomic 4 vs the 0-20yr old outboard on the Cal.
d) Masthead rig
e) Heaviest hull construction

Triton Advantages
a) Somewhat heavier hull construction than Cal
b) better motion and easier steering at sea
c) Probably has inboard engine giving better motoring performance in waves. Normally the inboard would be more reliable than the outboard too but the Triton is likely to have a 40-50 yr old Atomic 4 vs the 0-20yr old outboard on the Cal.
d) reccommendation from Dan Spurr for offshore work (Pearson Triton Sailboat)
e) Aeromarine version has a slightly heavier hull and has a masthead rig.

Among the big things to check before buying is that none of the bulkheads are rotted out. Some delamination of the deck core can be repaired. Once you have the boat you will want to consider glassing over the hull-deck joint. Also you may want to replace the rigging. Sta-loc or Norseman terminals are the quickest and best way to do the work and preserve resale value. Cheaper is to learn to splice eyes and do it yourself using 7x7 wire. See Brion Toss's The Rigger's apprentice.

Specific to most Cal boats you would want to make sure the steel beam under the compression post has not rusted thru. This beam may be buried under the liner so checking may be difficult. The beam is one more thing to check on Cal's but they do a better job of supporting the mast. See how one owner replaced the beam at
Wilkie's Sailboat Page

Consider adding built-in water tanks, more storage for the volume occupied and in the event of a holing thru the hull into the tank, the boat doesn't try to sink, the tank already had water in it, you just can't drink it now. See Atomvoyages link below.

Consider adding a removable inner forestay for a staysail. More sail area in light conditions, better balance in heavy conditions, staysail not as far foreward in heavy conditions, extra rigging gives the whole mast better support.

You will need 3 anchors:
A) main is a 25# plow/CQR or Claw/Bruce on 100-150' 1/4" chain & 200-300' 9/16" nylon 3-strand rope with bow roller and chain pawl (chain pawl allows you to go without a windlass),
B) backup is a 15-18# Danforth type anchor on 30' chain and 250-350' of rope and an oversized cleat; and
C) stern/kedge anchor is a 10# plow, claw or Danforth on 15' of 3/16" chain and 150-200' 7/16" rope.
D) If you are feeling flush get a 40-50# fisherman/herreschoff/Luke with same rode as B) for difficult rock and kelp situations.
A lot of the anchor stuff you might be able to pick up at swap meets if you attend early and stay late. This will save a lot. Some of the new anchors are getting better reps than the Bruce or CQR but have not hit the 2nd hand market yet.

You will need a small dinghy. Buying an inflatible is the current general answer but it will cost you, even second hand. A hard dinghy with oars, building one may be a more durable and economical answer if you have a place to do the work. There are various plans available for nesting dinghy's that take up a lot less deck space.

You will need to build a selfsteering windvane. There is a recent book that includes plans or checkout
http://www.mindspring.com/~waltmur/Self-Steering/

You may want to seal some of the storage compartments in the boat using waterproof hatches for access. This will provide floatation in the case of holing. This is discussed at
Atom Voyages | Sailing and Boat Project* Articles by James Baldwin

Make sure you have a drifter, being able to continue sailing in light air really saves on fuel. If the main is in good shape all's it may need is a 3rd reef. Decent sails can be had from used sail dealers.

For the Cal an outboard of 4hp would push you at 4-5kt in calm water, 6hp would get you to hull speed in a calm, 8hp would get you hull speed with 12-18kt wind or waves against you, over 10hp is a waste of fuel and extra weight in the stern since it won't push you any faster in a calm and in winds heavier than 18 or so the prop is going to start coming out of the water. Outboard has to be a 4-stroke, almost twice the fuel milage of a 2-stroke and a lot less pollution.

For the Triton and Cascade, get an engine manual.

You will need a solar panel or 2, preferably on a good mount, see above Atomvoyages for one idea. 2 or 3 new group 27 flooded batteries or a pair or 2 of new 6v golf cart batteries from a 2nd tier supplier would probably be adaquate if usage is limited. Evans Starzinger has intersting things to say about batteries at Systems.

To conserve battery power you want flourescent fixtures in the cabin, 1 or 2 in main & 1 in v-berth. Incadescents can remain in head and berths. You will want a single bulb Tricolor fixture at the masthead for sailing. At anchor get a LED fixture should go with the anchor ball. (Bebi Electronics-Home of the Finest Marine LED Lighting Products on Sea (or Earth)! is one source that I have heard decent things about.) If motoring and the outboard has a generator/alternator the existing incanscents are fine, otherwise consider replacing with LED.
Limiting the amount of electronics on the boat will help with battery conservation, deptho (make a backup lead line), speedo, simple mounted GPS (no chart plotter with color screen needing be backlit all the time), VHF, shortwave, and maybe a stero/CD player are about all you need. You may want a fan or 2 and if you locate them right they can do double duty blowing both over berths and thru the social areas of the main cabin. If you really need a computer, get one of the netbooks, they are optimized for low power draw to stretch their batteries as far as possible.

Convert the Icebox to shelves or drawers for storage. Same with the hanging locker across from head.

Read the Lin & Larry Pardey Books SelfSufficient Sailor, CapableCruiser and CostConsciousCruiser.
Read Annie Hill's Voyaging on a Small income
Read Beth Leonard's Voyager's Handbook

[phantomracer]

We actually have a 26M Macgregor. It is 1004% better than anyone (outside the Mac/trailer sailor community that is) gives it credit for. We still have it and use it even though we have our Ohlson 38.

Have been in pretty high wind and seas with it. NEVER felt unsafe. Never heels more than is reasonable for the situation. It is very well built (despite the critics) where it needs to be. Never has one sunk to the bottom due to tons of floatation.

I doubt the Mac would suit the need Shawn has. It COULD do it, but there are, no doubt, a lot of better choices. If he wanted to get into the trailer sailor scene, then yes, the M would be on my short list. But not for what he has planned.

I would suggest an O-38, thats just me

[zeehag]

macgregors have their points-- what other boat can ye back up to t beach and have a goood time, then speed away at planing speed and have fun or sail ... lol--is a multipurpose boat. also decent for a new crew---- if you have a place to place a trailerable, is a good idea.. the market for marina slips is still tough-- they are occupied by neglected boats--some of which are for lien sale--don t bypass those--and sail a lot of other peoples boats!!!
here in sd, boats are nickels on the dollar for purchasing. i found my formosa 41 for 10k. but iam putting into it about 5-6k as i go for repairs.
you CAN find westsail 32 for 7k--i found one for sale in ft myers, fla 3 yrs ago--but isnt common-- they run more like 15-25k used and in need... there is one here for 25 the lady isnt up to date with anything except flares and fire extinguishers--the engine is blown and cosmetix sukk.
there are islanders, a good boat, and ericsons here for cheap , also--every boat in sd is cheep now. before you buy, try-- sail opb as much as you can....enjoy your search.
also research your additional needs-- many things some folks say are necessary items are not so needed.. it all depends on your goals and your needs f or your individual comfort. when you sail opb, ask questions about EVERYTHING-- what is it , why have it, etc.... have fun.....

[dofthesea]

Check out the thread below. I asked a similiar question about 6 months ago and ended up with an IF Folkboat. Not a great liveaboard but a perfect boat to learn in time what the Ocean can throw at you. If you haven't spent time on a boat you might be in for a surprise how miserable a small boat can be as far as adjusting to a shoebox living arrangement. I used to think that living on a sailboat would be the ultimate lifestyle until I stayed in a 38' motorhome for 3 months and realized I would need a 40-45 boat for the same amount of space. Well to say the least I went with a boat to sail not to live aboard. Now i get to sail her and not spend 2 hours stowing everything everytime I want to sail. Good Luck

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ion-44122.html

[dofthesea]

Also I will mention the forum was very helpful in me making a wise decision on which boat to get.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by dofthesea

Check out the thread below. I asked a similiar question about 6 months ago and ended up with an IF Folkboat. Not a great liveaboard but a perfect boat to learn in time what the Ocean can throw at you. If you haven't spent time on a boat you might be in for a surprise how miserable a small boat can be as far as adjusting to a shoebox living arrangement. I used to think that living on a sailboat would be the ultimate lifestyle until I stayed in a 38' motorhome for 3 months and realized I would need a 40-45 boat for the same amount of space. Well to say the least I went with a boat to sail not to live aboard. Now i get to sail her and not spend 2 hours stowing everything everytime I want to sail. Good Luck

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ion-44122.html

LOL... yeah its crazy how one can adapt to so little and still be comfortable in one's self with what you have... 21 to 37ft and back down I've never really envied another mans boat.. admired yes... but envy... nope... happy with what I've got at the time... it fits..

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by dofthesea

Check out the thread below. I asked a similiar question about 6 months ago and ended up with an IF Folkboat. Not a great liveaboard but a perfect boat to learn in time what the Ocean can throw at you. If you haven't spent time on a boat you might be in for a surprise how miserable a small boat can be as far as adjusting to a shoebox living arrangement. I used to think that living on a sailboat would be the ultimate lifestyle until I stayed in a 38' motorhome for 3 months and realized I would need a 40-45 boat for the same amount of space. Well to say the least I went with a boat to sail not to live aboard. Now i get to sail her and not spend 2 hours stowing everything everytime I want to sail. Good Luck

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ion-44122.html

And I guess when re-reading that thread you get a different perspective / see where folks were coming from..........

.........still waiting for pics

[ozzie]

Captain Shawn are you for real!!! I would like to know what your wife has to think about your folly. Nobody should go and do what you are planning with out experience. You would be putting your family and the people that would have to go rescue you at risk.
You have been given some good advice about sailing around Vancouver. There are many amazing places right in your back yard. You could spend years exploring in small boats gaining experience in a tidal and often windy area. Spend time on the water on other peoples boats, preferably racing which is the fast track to learning to sail.