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Old 23-01-2006, 12:34   #1
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Need Some Help! (again!) ;)

Dear Board of Infinite Wisdom:

Thank you for the input regarding cork flooring. We are ordering that soon, and epoxying up the delams in the current floor boards, producing a very unique cabin sole. Awesome advice.

Now, I have to ask another question. In attempting to get the lighting right in the boat, we have come to a sticking point. The boat came with many 12v "lamps" positioned throughout. These can be seen in my photos section in the picture of the master stateroom. They each carry a 25 or 50 watt, 12V DC , incandescant bulb. Here are the problems with keeping the current system:

1) 25W bulbs don't produce enough light to cook and clean by and really don't create the look we want.

2) 50W bulbs are overload. They produce the required light, but burn the lamp shades.

3) We tried out a new lamp shade to let more light pass through from the smaller (25W) bulbs, but the QUALITY of the light is bad. It's too white/stark/washed out. It is bad on the eyes.

Our plan was just to change the shades (as in #3 above) this year, to save time/money. We now find that this is not working.

Compounding my problems, I have a vinyl headliner that is held in place by wooden slats that are screwed to a frame system that is above the ceiling. All the wooden slats are pieces of finish carpentry teak, and have teak bungs installed over the screws. I do not want to take this all apart to install the proper halogen lights.

Does anyone have a creative solution to these issues?

I have a very limited amount of time before our first charter of the 2006 spring season up here. I don't have much money to spare, and I need good lighting (halogen). Any ideas, keeping in mind I have an enormous list that I have to finish and am short on time due to an early charter?

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to get creative with this one.

PS: Does anyone know much about the new headliner materials you see on new boats? They are bright white and do not look like they have these wooden slats holding it in place. It looks like it stays up on its own, is semi-rigid, and uses little white "buttons" over the screws that hold it in place. Is it easy to work with this stuff? Would it just be faster to do that?

Thanks to anyone commenting on the "PS" as well
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Old 23-01-2006, 13:30   #2
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25 and 50W?? ouch. That is hard on current. Even Halogen is going to be hard on the current draw.
Fluro is your best bet at achieving a lot of light output, especially in a cooking area, with halogen spots to highlight a couple of work area's. Hide the fluro behind a panel so as it washes up walls and onto ceilings.
You can't beet the Halogen light for reading. For general Saloon lighting, Fluro along the side walls hiden behind panels. The light is reflected as a wash up and across the ceiling. Then down projected spots once again on a few key area's.
I haven't tried any of the new LED lights yet, but can't see how they could compeate with Halogen. Apart from the huge advantage of little current draw.
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Old 23-01-2006, 15:49   #3
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I think Alan is on to your answer.. I would look at halogen task lamps such as these from Imtra - only one of about a dozen on the page....




heres the whole page:

http://www.imtra.com/product/marine_...art_lights.htm
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Old 23-01-2006, 17:31   #4
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Thank you both for the response. I like the idea of flourescents from a practical standpoint. I have a concern that they will produce the same light I used to have in offices. Is this accurate, or do they make special ones that produce a more "halogen-esque" spectrum?

We are trying to keep it warm, rich and luxurious in here.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm building a power boat inside of a sailboat hull. ha ha
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Old 23-01-2006, 18:28   #5
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I am not sure about what is available in Fluro 12V. Certainly Fluro mains voltage gives you many light types to choose from.
However, with a standard white fluro, you can easily place a filter over the tube. The tunbe is esentially cold and a light filter material like I used to use on stages can give you every colour of the spectrum. A very light Red'ish colour would warm up the walls and cause the timber "glow".
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Old 24-01-2006, 05:05   #6
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Sean,
In our last boat, we had flouro's through out, neatly mounted where you couldn't see the fixtures. They provided a very nice indirect lighting ... but the color temperature was very cold .. and I was having a problem with bulb life. At the recommendation of Thin Life (the manufacture of the units) I stopped using the bulbs bought at West Marine (Chinese made) and bought bulbs from Home Depot (American made) ... that took care of the bulb life problem. Then I noticed that Phillips was making a "warm temperature" (color wise) bulb that claimed to give the appearance of incandescents ... WOW! Nice warm color, made the whole boat seem more comfortable inside. In our current boat we have many Xenon lights and our very happy with them.

Bob & Lynn
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Old 24-01-2006, 05:16   #7
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Sean, we see a great many liveaboard boats - where lighting stops being a decoration and something tolerated and instead is a 'quality of lifestyle' issue - that rely on Alpenglow lights. These are 12V flourescent but absent the washed-out tones and come in two basic versions: overhead panel light in a teak frame, and task/reading light version. They are very energy efficient and you buy them direct from the manufacturer in Montana. We have 8 aboard and I highly recommend them. www.alpenglowlights.com (Alas, they are not cheap...but then, you will be living with these indefinitely).

Your request for suggestions about your overhead panels ('ceiling' refers to panels or boards lining a hull in boat-speak) apparently relates to your need to access wiring when replacing overhead lights, is that correct? Given time pressure and cost constraints, here are two suggestions. For now, stick with the existing battens and panels; drill out the bungs and remove the fasteners to drop (partially or completely) the panels and install your new lights, then refasten the battens using finishing washers under the fasteners. You may need to change to a longer fastener with a different (phillips oval) head to give a finished appearance. Next time you need access, it's a minute's work to drop a batten or two.

However, if longer term you are thinking of replacing the panels, Lowe's carries 4' x 8' sheets of a white plastic sheet that seems ideal for this. A friend recently replaced all the tired/dingy overhead panels in his Cheoy Lee 41 with this material (also supported by battens) and it looks first-class presentable (not cheesy) and brightens the interior magically. I used some of this on a condo project and like working with the material a lot; you can cut it with utility scissors and it will clean up easily and never break down. I plan on replacing WHOOSH's overhead panels with this material when she's next in the States. Cost was about $15/sheet.

Good luck on the time & budget pressures; you know you're in a large club, right?

Jack
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Old 24-01-2006, 06:15   #8
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LED's

Sean,

I'm just trialling some 12v LED versions of the MR11. This reference is the smaller of the two normal halogen globes used in most halogen light fittings and I assume its used also Stateside.

I want them to hopefully replace the halogen MR11's on our Hanse yacht. It has around 30 such globes. Changing to LED's will certainly allow us to use more light than we do currently.

Sadly the MR11's I've receipted first are the 'cold light' versions although the 'warm lights' are apparently now produced. In my opinion (no instruments - just mark one eyeballs) these 'cold light' versions seem to produce 70% of the light generated by our other 20W halogen MR11's. The difference as I'm sure you'll know, is the LED version should last 15,000 as opposed to 2,000 hours, and only consumes 2W as opposed to 20.

I've another couple of 'warm light' MR11's being sourced right now in China - and once we've got them can report back on how effective or not they are.

Costs per LED MR11 globe in the UK are between 6.50 - 7.00 which is around twice what one can get halogen for here, but I'm not sure how that compares with halogen MR11's in USA.

I'll update you (if you want) once I've got and trialled the warm versions.

Cheers
JOHN
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Old 24-01-2006, 06:54   #9
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Jack,

Thanks for the tip on the Alpenglows. I wanted to also ask for a little more description regarding the plastic panels you mentioned from Lowe's. I am not at all attached to these battens, and think the boat would look more modern without them. Is there any info from your friend on the name of the material he used?

I would love to just drop my current panels and wire up some xenons or halogens. Unfortunately, my "panels" are not quite that. They are a thin vinyl fabric that is stretched from batten to batten and stapled to the wooden framework in areas it is not screwed in under the battens. It isn't in bad shape, but it looks dated, and certainly isn't a bright white.

Maybe I can fit just this one more project in. I'll have to put the wife to work sanding.. ha ha ha. Just kidding.

Anyway, after reading the input here, and thinking hard about it, I realize I should probably not rush it and should do the job right the first time. That's always cheaper in the long run.

Thanks.


Quote:
Euro Cruiser once whispered in the wind:
Sean, we see a great many liveaboard boats - where lighting stops being a decoration and something tolerated and instead is a 'quality of lifestyle' issue - that rely on Alpenglow lights. These are 12V flourescent but absent the washed-out tones and come in two basic versions: overhead panel light in a teak frame, and task/reading light version. They are very energy efficient and you buy them direct from the manufacturer in Montana. We have 8 aboard and I highly recommend them. www.alpenglowlights.com (Alas, they are not cheap...but then, you will be living with these indefinitely).

Your request for suggestions about your overhead panels ('ceiling' refers to panels or boards lining a hull in boat-speak) apparently relates to your need to access wiring when replacing overhead lights, is that correct? Given time pressure and cost constraints, here are two suggestions. For now, stick with the existing battens and panels; drill out the bungs and remove the fasteners to drop (partially or completely) the panels and install your new lights, then refasten the battens using finishing washers under the fasteners. You may need to change to a longer fastener with a different (phillips oval) head to give a finished appearance. Next time you need access, it's a minute's work to drop a batten or two.

However, if longer term you are thinking of replacing the panels, Lowe's carries 4' x 8' sheets of a white plastic sheet that seems ideal for this. A friend recently replaced all the tired/dingy overhead panels in his Cheoy Lee 41 with this material (also supported by battens) and it looks first-class presentable (not cheesy) and brightens the interior magically. I used some of this on a condo project and like working with the material a lot; you can cut it with utility scissors and it will clean up easily and never break down. I plan on replacing WHOOSH's overhead panels with this material when she's next in the States. Cost was about $15/sheet.

Good luck on the time & budget pressures; you know you're in a large club, right?

Jack
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Old 24-01-2006, 06:57   #10
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And a general question about 12v fluoros

Do they still flash on and off at a certain frequency like their AC powered counterparts, or is it a constant light?

I always hated this type of light on land.
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Old 24-01-2006, 07:15   #11
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Re: And a general question about 12v fluoros

Quote:
ssullivan once whispered in the wind:
Do they still flash on and off at a certain frequency like their AC powered counterparts, or is it a constant light?

I always hated this type of light on land.
Sean

They are not the same as office fluorescents but still not the warm light we get from our reading lights. We have them in the main salon and galley and they are great for lighting the area. Not so great for mood lighting.

Also as a headliner idea. We have battens framing the inserts. So one approach might be to cut out the thin stretched material. Glue some new battens framing the area then Velcro or fasten the Lowe's stuff to the new inserts. That leaves the original outline which looks good in place and let's you put in a new look.

Our inserts are vinyl covered press-board to which lights are mounted. Would be fairly easy to update.
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Old 24-01-2006, 08:23   #12
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Sean - as for the headliner I saw a nice job done on a current YW listing.. maybe give you an idea or 2...
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...01&slim=quick&

Also, if your guests are likely to take pictures while below, remember the greenish tint to the flourescents will usually show in the photos.
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Old 24-01-2006, 10:36   #13
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Ok, I think I'm closing in on the ceiling/headliner. I just got back from Loew's. They had only 2 items that fit the description. One is a fiberglass shower lining material with many bumps and ridges. Too many, actually.

The other is possibly the vinyl coated press-board. I'm not sure though, and neither were they. It was a material slightly harder than cardboard, and had one white face with no texture at all. Very smooth. The press board material the non-faced side was made of was dark brown and had a paper or cardboard feel to it. Is that the right stuff?

I was concerned about moisture after touching the material. It says the face is moisture resistant, but says nothing about the back, or structure of the board. Seems like a few drips and your headliner would flex, sag, then break. Anyone using this stuff?

PS: Mark, thanks for that link. I am looking to do something like that. Here is an exact example of the headliner I'm looking for. Has anyone seen where I can get this stuff?

http://cruisersforum.com/photopost//...t=7&thecat=500
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Old 24-01-2006, 11:27   #14
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Hmmmm, it's not a smooth shower/bathroom lining material is it. It has a white hard water imperviouse surface on one side and a brown material backing. The material on the back is a water resisitant hard board material, often oil impregnated.
I don't know who Loew's are, but any hardware company that sells timber and such for home improvements would or should have this type of stuff. It is waterproof and will stay in position without drooping.
I could give you a few names of the material it is sold as in NZ, but I would imagine it would be different to what it will be called over your way.
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Old 24-01-2006, 12:42   #15
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Thanks, Wheels. That sounds exactly right.... a good description of what I saw at Loew's, which is a large center for building materials something like our famous Wal-Mart.

I will now seriously consider this alternative material based on the fact that it's waterproof on the backside as well.

Now just a question of if the styling of the face is up to par (elegant enough) for what we are trying to achive in here. Thanks for the input. I'll go back with the wife to Loew's tomorrow and see if it meets decor standards.
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