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Old 05-08-2007, 13:26   #16

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Originally Posted by Pblais
You realize this discussion is now public and may be available to anyone that wants to purchase the boat.
It hadn't crossed my mind that I would want to keep this information private. I am 100% honest with people who look at my boat (or with anything else for that matter). So... "hiding" this info hadn't occured to me.

I'd rather just have all the info out here and available to anyone looking to buy the boat. I'm not looking to omit anything from the boat's description and would never be in any way deceptive or provide less than full disclosure.

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Old 05-08-2007, 13:41   #17

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Originally Posted by scallywag
Taking another peron's surveyor's word for the condition of your yacht should be a red flag. The buyer is trying to get something for nothing. Do you think a marine insurance company would insure the yacht with that type of survey?
Sean, you could always list the boat "as-is". Sell the valuable items separately. Playstation and TV are possibilities. People might feel the TV is a plus for the yacht as the playstation is not important. I did not see a dink with outboard motor listed. A dink and outboard probably bring more sold separately than with a yacht. Hope everthing goes well for you.

John (and others),

To put things into perspective, I was aboard for the survey. I can tell you exactly how the surveyor found the water still trapped in the gel coat after approx 1 week on the hard:

He went around with a hammer and would hear hard clacks, then more of a "thud" sound. Where the thud was, he scraped off bottom paint to reveal a crack under the bottom paint, previously unknown to me. My broker even suggested this surveyor, so I don't think the was in kahoots with the prospective buyer. So when he heard these spots with water, he scraped off the bottom paint to reveal a little crack (some go all the way across the entire boat). The crack is gel coat splitting from gel coat. No idea why, but that's what it is. According to the surveyor, this crack lets water seep into the area between the gel coat and the first layer of fiberglass. He stressed this poses absolutley NO structural issue (even remarked at how strong and sturdy the hull is). We have no active blisters (blisters between fiberglass layers) and have only pockets of water between gel coat and fiberglass.

Listing the boat "as is" is exactly what I was thinking of doing at the price at the top of this thread. I wanted to see if anyone thought it was a fair price to ask for a boat that has this kind of interior, but will be lacking some of the equipment - equipment many don't like such as: alcohol stove, large & loud genset, wood stove, etc... I was going to keep that equipment for my next boat/home on the water. Basically, I was trying to see if anyone thought the price was good/aggressive for this boat with the known problem and the equipment listed. As in... would you buy at at that price, or is it STILL too high?

Here is a link to the boat (as requested). Obviously, don't go through this link to ask about purchasing, since it's 10% more. Boats and Yachts for Sale

Feel free to comment.

I wish we could keep the boat, but again, I must remind those that say "work several years just to get to a net worth of $0" - we will save $60K by not keeping her! I don't know about you, but starting from scratch (no existing company) and pulling in $60K after taxes to pay this loan (plus interest, insurance, dock/yard fees, upkeep) takes me a heck of a long time. It's much faster to get to positive net worth (not using emotion, but logic) by dumping the item that is too expensive for us and putting that same drive in to earn $60K to put away for investing and retirement. Wouldn't that make more sense??

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Old 05-08-2007, 13:44   #18

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Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler
Besides, if it is just cracking, then a good dry out, a good abrasive sand to key and a good epoxy coating is all that is needed.
All can be done by you. It is not hard.
Does this "epoxy coating" mean a standard "epoxy barrier coat?"

PS: We're about to open up our own PayPal donation site at this point! ha ha ha
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Old 05-08-2007, 14:58   #19
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As you are seriously contemplating selling, do not remove items that will cost you money. The wood stove might cost you money to remove. ie what do you do will the hole from the flue? It becomes a money issue.
79K sounds like a good price. I have not checked Boat Trader to see what is available or the prices. Back in the mid 1970's, used sailboat prices esculated because of the price of oil and resin. Power boat prices took a beating because of fuel and resin. Of course, bottom problems also became a problem because of new formulas used for resin.

I wish you the best.

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Old 05-08-2007, 16:10   #20
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Yeah, Sean, I certainly do understand eliminating a debt burden in order to start moving into the black and improving my overall financial situation, esp. if it's a long-term debt. That line of thinking makes perfect sense, and I guess you reasonably could have decided either way. It's just that we know how much blood sweat & tears were involved in making her what she is today, and we're all on your side.

She's still a beaut.
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Old 05-08-2007, 16:25   #21

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Scallywag: Good advice. I will be sure not to remove any items that will cause gaping holes. Luckily, everything I installed was installed with the greatest of care and installed to be removed if necessary. The wood stove chimney is routed through a deck hatch and can be converted back to a hatch in a matter of 5-10 mins. All the steel backing can be removed and a new cushion fitted back where the steel is to form the orginal full length port settee. Same goes for everything else I'm looking at removing. No gaping holes or real disasters would be left. Thanks for the input - I'll be careful should we go this route.

CaptainJeff: THanks for the kind words. The boat is certainly a nice one and I sure would love to keep her, but the time has come to put finance before luxury. On the up side, I won't lose 100% of the effort of putting this boat together if I take out the systems I put in. That's something of a plus.

Hopefully, someone out there will recognize that she is still a super steal at that price without some of the equipment they would be throwing out anyway (I like lots of unpopular stuff like wood stoves, alcohol stoves, gensets) I know most don't like those things anyway, so it's like I'm doing half their refit. ha ha

We have an estimate tomorrow for the bottom epoxy barrier coat work. Will see how this all fits in to the possible buyer and will probably list at the reduced price without our systems if it is a no go.

Thanks everyone. Good inputs.
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Old 05-08-2007, 16:54   #22
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FWIW, Sean,

If your boat was in Austraila, I reckon that it would sell for at least double what you are asking! It is a beautiful boat, and if I were in your shoes, I would be doing everything in my power to not sell her! If I were not committed to the refitting of Insatiable and with current work commitments precluding a 6 month delivery back to Australia, I would seriously consider buying her.

Having said that, to answer your initial question:

Could you not just fix the problem yourself? If the problem is as you have described, it would be fairly simple to grind back the gelcoat around the cracks, paint on some epoxy, sand it smooth and reapply your anti-foul. If the problem is not extensive, it would likely cost your haul-out fee, plus a couple of days on the hard, and mebbe a hundred dollars for materials (assuming you have a grinder & an orbital).
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Old 05-08-2007, 16:55   #23
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Sorry to hear about your misfortune, Sean. In re-reading your opening post, it remains unclear to me if you are taking the vessel back from the broker, and thinking of offering it at $79.9k with no broker involvement. If the broker is still involved, though, you will only net about $71.9k, whereas with a full-price offer at your $102k list you would have netted about $91.8k. Not a trivial difference.

Since your potential buyer is doing things ass-backward, I presume he hasn't even mentioned an offer number yet. You have no way, therefore, to compare what you will net by reducing the price as you're contemplating, versus what you would net from selling to him.

I would be dubious about the depth of the possible-buyer's interest - the notion of surveying several boats prior to submitting an offer and contract on the pick-of-the-litter strikes me as odd, to say the least. I don't think you should let this unusual behavior throw you off your game plan.

You have a highly-desirable vessel, and she deserves to go into the hands of someone who will appreciate what you have accomplished. I'm not sure that that describes your present "buyer." I hope you will at least think it over calmly, quietly talk it over with your wife, and it may be that the situation isn't nearly as dire at it presently seems.

Many, if not most, who have come to know you through reading your many thoughtful posts on this forum, Sean, want to see you reap the rewards of your hard work. You deserve it.


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Old 05-08-2007, 17:43   #24
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Agree with bottleinamessage. One buyer, one survey, one opinion. Problem is fixable even if real. If a buyer wants it he will negotiate to lower the price to fix it.

Even though "this" discussion is public you have nothing to disclose - this is America, the boat is used. Unless you are warranting the boat free from defects it is up to the buyer to find any problems. Besides the problem may not be real as it is unconfirmed by an independent survey. This survey is not your survey it's the buyer's survey. At this point you have an opinion from a party with a vested interest in the outcome.

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Old 05-08-2007, 23:05   #25
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interest in the boat

Haven't been around on this site much recently, working hard on my boat, lol. BUT, just last week I was talking to a fellow here that has a Pearson 35 and who wants to move up to a larger boat. He mention your model as the one he was mostinterested in. I even mentioned your boat to him because I remembered how sharp it looked in the pics on your site.

Can you contact me with some more pics and info??? Both this guy and I were orginaly from NJ, now in St. Pete. He could be a very seriously interested buyer.
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Old 06-08-2007, 00:30   #26
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Well after looking at those photo's, that boat is worth much more than you are asking. I wonder if you are too cheap and getting dreamers only taking a look. That boat should be more toward the 200-250 range. I feel that maybe you are making this sound too much like you need to run from it and possible buyers are picking up on that.
OK, back to the hull. I still don't buy this problem. Water can not seep between the Gelcoat and the glass. Think of this another way. The gelcoat is the glass. It is not a seperate layer applied like paint. It is a part and parcel, all in one, chemicaly bonded product. Even an osmosis blister does not lift the gel only. It damage is much deeper than this. There are only two types of cracking possible. One is seriouse stress cracking and is structural. The other is no more than gel coat crazing(if that's the right word) it will not allow water in under it.
If that is all it is, then a good hard sand to key and an epoxy undercoat should be all that is needed.
Barrier coating is usually epoxy resin. Even this can be done, but the epoxy undercoats should suffice. The only difference between the two is that the epoxy undercoat has fillers in it that help make the film thicker and easier to sand and most importantly, help it stay on the hull without running. Epoxy resin is a pig to apply and keep from running and an even greater pig to sand.
Where to from here. I know it costs you to haul, but you need to take a better look at what is really going on. You need to gring back a small area and see just how wet the laminations really are. That will then guide you on whether you discount and run, or take off the price say 2K-3K for hull drying and painting.
I would also look at raising the price to a realistic figure and then see who kicks the tires.

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Old 06-08-2007, 02:08   #27
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Your hull problems don't sound that bad and a local repair followed by a barrier coat might be all that's required. In any event, the most sensible approach is to obtain a written quotation for repairs and negotiate on that basis.

Once you've got the quote you can sell the boat at fair market value less the repair costs. If the purchaser is worried about cost overruns you can leave few thousand in escrow pending completion of the repairs.

When I sold my boat in February I did the repairs at a reputable yard and INCREASED the sale price by about 5%. My rationale was that I'd improved the boat beyond what I'd agreed with the seller. He didn't like paying more but admitted he was getting value for money. On my new boat, deal made in July, I agreed to split repair costs with the seller 50-50.

If the boat is in good condition (which yours seems to be) you should have no trouble negotiating something reasonable with the purchaser. There's no need to give it away!
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:27   #28

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I did some research as Wheels (and other suggested). It IS odd that the surveyor talks about water trapped between the gelcoat and the hull. Here is what I came up with:

I have the same exact issue on deck in some little spots as there is below the waterline. Basically, the gel coat has a few air pockets and voids behind it. At times, probably due to the boat's age, the gel coat has cracked/crazed allowing water to end up between the gel coat and the hull.

So this is NOT a structural issue at all, and is more of a cosmetic issue. I just am not sure how to proceed. See... even the brokers have no clue. They think that having water behind some gel coat in a void is the same thing as blisters, so they are turning away people based on that.

The question is - what's the fix? An epoxy barrier coat sounds like overkill for some pitting and cracking gel coat (which only serves to make a boat look pretty - there are plenty of fishing boats around here with painted fiberglass, rather than gel coat). Should I grind down and use gel coat filler after the water has dried out?
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Old 06-08-2007, 04:51   #29
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if you are determined to sell the boat as we discussed live a few weeks ago, then you might look at the cost of having the bottom professionally peeled so the gelcoat is off and even. This has you down to a good surface. The greatest cost is rebuilding the new bottom, if you are willing to get dirty then you can buy the epoxy or vinylester resin and put the new bottom on yourself. It's not complicated just labor intensive. That solves the problem for not ton's of dollars or as suggested above get an estimate for the repair and factor that into the price but stripping the boat makes it much less desirable.
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Old 06-08-2007, 05:33   #30
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Originally Posted by ssullivan
.. So this is NOT a structural issue at all, and is more of a cosmetic issue. I just am not sure how to proceed. See... even the brokers have no clue. They think that having water behind some gel coat in a void is the same thing as blisters, so they are turning away people based on that ...
Although paint blisters can be considered purely cosmetic, blisters involving one or more layers of laminate can lead to rather rapid loss of the structural strength of a vessel's laminate depending on number of blisters and layers of laminate involved.

All of the various polyester-based fiberglass resins are subject to deterioration by hydrolysis. For hydrolysis to occur, water as liquid or vapor must be present. In the hydrolysis reaction, water molecules break up the resin molecules, leaving an organic acid of varying acidity, depending on the particular resin, and a mixture of molecules of water, alcohols, and glycols. After a period of time, only the heavier alcohols and the glycol will remain (resin depletion).

After hydrolysis, the new molecules have some mobility and also occupy a greater volume than the polyester molecules from which they came. The result is internal pressure, which can be the precursor to blistering, delamination, increased flexinility and structural failure.

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