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Old 17-01-2009, 14:43   #16
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It seems that these hard times are showing which companies have real integrity and which do not...
I donít wish to sidetrack this thread, but yes, many otherwise reputable companies, including cities and utilities, are looking to save the extra buck, and not spend it on warranty claims and the like. We have just been informed by the City of Kissimmee, South Orlando, that we must buy a $30.00 occupational license for all the private rental properties we look after. ďWhen did that come in?Ē we asked. ďItís always been required,Ē came the reply, ďItís just that the cost of collection was higher than the amount, but now we need it.Ē
I can see handshakes rapidly going out the window, and we all need to be very careful.
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Old 17-01-2009, 15:38   #17
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I think that if you follow David advice you will be just fine, as you mentioned the facts of the case are irrefutable and a US judge will surely be able to see them clearly.

Good luck
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Old 17-01-2009, 16:41   #18
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While I don't have a dog in this fight, and while I agree that it's unfortunate that your sails no longer look crisp and white, I doubt you'll ever prevail even if you figure out a way to get your claim before an independent trier of fact without returning from Finland to do so.

As I understand your various posts, Patrick, what you're calling "staining" is, according to the material manufacturer, the embedding of microfibers from the cover material into the material of your sails. You state that the retailer from whom you ordered the covers has already reimbursed you for the cost of the covers, and because he did so he asserts you have no claim against him.

The cover manufacturer is claiming to have used that material many times before without incident. It would be interesting to know if the retailer, who reimbursed you, made any claim back to the cover manufacturer for that reimbursement. It's possible that the two of them split that cost, but that's between the two of them.

If seems to me that each of the three parties has tried to learn what went wrong, and each has concluded "It's not my fault." I think I agree with them, insofar as each held up his end of the bargain. That is, the retailer took your order, passed it along to the manufacturer and sent you the (apparently well-made) covers.

The manufacturer took the retailer's order, purchased the material and custom-built the covers to your specs. If he has indeed used that material, from that material manufacturer, before, and experienced nothing like this previously, then I believe he is an innocent middle-man.

If the material manufacturer is correct, and what you're calling "staining" is actually a transfer of microfibers from the inner side of the covers into the fabric of your sails, and not a lack of color-fastness in the material, then it's highly doubtful that the problem lies in the manufacture of the material.

Still, all that said, you're left with a green cast to your crisp white sails that wasn't there before you ordered and installed the new covers. The retailer feels he has done all he can by reimbursing the amount you paid for the covers, and, once you return the new sails, he will credit your card for the amount charged.

As I see it, you're left with a free set of covers, but with a green cast to your previously sparkling-white sails. You're thousands of miles from Texas (see, you're way ahead already ) and if the retailer is not even located there, then there may be a jurisdictional question anyway. And finally, the cost of a new suit of sails for a Mac 26 is, apparently, only $1000.

If I were in your position, I think I'd live with the green-ish sails and the new (free) covers and forget about suing anyone or demeaning them on the internet. To me, it seems like a lot of aggravation for $1000.

Once you decide to replace the existing suit of sails, offer them on eBay as a unique item - the only sails in the world with that hard-to-get green cast! Enjoy Finland, sail in peace and bask in the glory as you tell your friends how you got a free set of sail covers to go with your minty sails.

TaoJones

PS: Isn't the Mac 26X the one that's both a sailboat and a speedboat? Chances are, you'll spend half your time zipping around under power with your sails hidden under their new covers anyway!

PPS: Forget disputing the charge for the new sails with your credit card company. The first thing they will ask is, have you tried to work this out with the vendor already? When you say that you have, and that the vendor has agreed to credit your card when he receives the unopened package of sails back, their position will be that the dispute has already been resolved.

None of the other drama with the other parties is relevant to how the credit card company will decide your dispute. You can't both keep the new sails and have their cost refunded to you.
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Old 17-01-2009, 16:48   #19
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Originally Posted by Jolly Roger View Post
I don’t wish to sidetrack this thread, but yes, many otherwise reputable companies, including cities and utilities, are looking to save the extra buck, and not spend it on warranty claims and the like. We have just been informed by the City of Kissimmee, South Orlando, that we must buy a $30.00 occupational license for all the private rental properties we look after. “When did that come in?” we asked. “It’s always been required,” came the reply, “It’s just that the cost of collection was higher than the amount, but now we need it.”
I can see handshakes rapidly going out the window, and we all need to be very careful.
So for some magical reason their cost of collection is less now?

My guess is some bureaucrat was told to get off their rear end and do their job because now they REALLY need the money. The reason before wasn't really the true reason.
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Old 17-01-2009, 18:42   #20
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I'm missing a few bits of information from your story.

The cover for the roller furling genoa---- was this sewn into the sail as a sacrificial UV cover by the sailmaker ?? How would you put a liner on that ?

I don't read where you have had any conversations with the sailmaker..?
The company that actually made the sails ? Where are they in this mix?

Was your mainsail from a different manufacturer?
If so, you have two different sailmakers? ...both sails affected by the cover fabric,
Which would definitely point to the fabric....or were the sails made by the same company at different times?

the 3 companies you're talking to are the retailer, the cover maker, and the fabric manufacturer ? ...from what I've read, you have no verification that they tried to clean anything...or maybe they tried a few things, that didn't work, decided it wasn't their problem and quit.

The first thing, I'd do is reach out to a quality sailmaker where you live and get their opinion on cleaning. If they are indeed fibres and not a dye stain they might be cleanable.

I'm guessing that the fabric manufacturer was not going to risk damaging your sails further trying to clean them and then clearly be liable for them.
They took the easy route, and passed the buck imo

I can't imagine who manufactued this material, I have a Navy Blue UV cover on my brand new headsail...and a the same on my brand new mainsail ( with no lining ) There's no fibre transfer, or dye leeching..

I'd Talk to a good sailmaker....they may be cleanable...

If not, it might drive you crazy to try to get $ back from afar....keep the spare set, you may need them one day.
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Old 17-01-2009, 19:11   #21
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I have a boat with green canvas and, before long, I will be needing new sails and canvas. I for one would like to know the name of the supplier and fabric so that I do not have a similar experience.
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Old 17-01-2009, 23:51   #22
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The retailer is probably the only company you can successfully sue. Small claims is free. My personal experience with small claims is they lean toward the person that is out money...namely you. If the judge settled in your favor, this would force the retailer to take action against the manufacturer in order to reclaim their money. There is a time limit from the time of the incident to the time in court. I would check on that if I was you.
I was sued in small claims for helping some one. It was a nightmare!
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Old 18-01-2009, 00:09   #23
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Originally Posted by TaoJones View Post
While I don't have a dog in this fight, and while I agree that it's unfortunate that your sails no longer look crisp and white, I doubt you'll ever prevail even if you figure out a way to get your claim before an independent trier of fact without returning from Finland to do so.

As I understand your various posts, Patrick, what you're calling "staining" is, according to the material manufacturer, the embedding of microfibers from the cover material into the material of your sails. You state that the retailer from whom you ordered the covers has already reimbursed you for the cost of the covers, and because he did so he asserts you have no claim against him.

The cover manufacturer is claiming to have used that material many times before without incident. It would be interesting to know if the retailer, who reimbursed you, made any claim back to the cover manufacturer for that reimbursement. It's possible that the two of them split that cost, but that's between the two of them.

If seems to me that each of the three parties has tried to learn what went wrong, and each has concluded "It's not my fault." I think I agree with them, insofar as each held up his end of the bargain. That is, the retailer took your order, passed it along to the manufacturer and sent you the (apparently well-made) covers.

The manufacturer took the retailer's order, purchased the material and custom-built the covers to your specs. If he has indeed used that material, from that material manufacturer, before, and experienced nothing like this previously, then I believe he is an innocent middle-man.

If the material manufacturer is correct, and what you're calling "staining" is actually a transfer of microfibers from the inner side of the covers into the fabric of your sails, and not a lack of color-fastness in the material, then it's highly doubtful that the problem lies in the manufacture of the material.

Still, all that said, you're left with a green cast to your crisp white sails that wasn't there before you ordered and installed the new covers. The retailer feels he has done all he can by reimbursing the amount you paid for the covers, and, once you return the new sails, he will credit your card for the amount charged.

As I see it, you're left with a free set of covers,
The covers were returned.

Quote:
but with a green cast to your previously sparkling-white sails.
Unfortunately, the staining is irregular and distinct. Think more along the lines of spilling wine on your shirt rather than washing a white shirt with a red sock. So it really stands out and looks terrible.

Quote:
You're thousands of miles from Texas (see, you're way ahead already ) and if the retailer is not even located there, then there may be a jurisdictional question anyway. And finally, the cost of a new suit of sails for a Mac 26 is, apparently, only $1000.

If I were in your position, I think I'd live with the green-ish sails and the new (free) covers and forget about suing anyone or demeaning them on the internet. To me, it seems like a lot of aggravation for $1000.
$1K to some is alot more than $1K to others...
Quote:

Once you decide to replace the existing suit of sails, offer them on eBay as a unique item - the only sails in the world with that hard-to-get green cast! Enjoy Finland, sail in peace and bask in the glory as you tell your friends how you got a free set of sail covers to go with your minty sails.

TaoJones

PS: Isn't the Mac 26X the one that's both a sailboat and a speedboat? Chances are, you'll spend half your time zipping around under power with your sails hidden under their new covers anyway!
I mostly sail.
Quote:

PPS: Forget disputing the charge for the new sails with your credit card company. The first thing they will ask is, have you tried to work this out with the vendor already? When you say that you have, and that the vendor has agreed to credit your card when he receives the unopened package of sails back, their position will be that the dispute has already been resolved.


None of the other drama with the other parties is relevant to how the credit card company will decide your dispute. You can't both keep the new sails and have their cost refunded to you.
Agreed. I've already tested and abandoned that option. And I'm quite happy letting any of the three parties keep the stained sails. I simply want the sails either successfully cleaned or replaced, which IMO is fair.
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Old 18-01-2009, 00:17   #24
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Originally Posted by Tempest245 View Post
I'm missing a few bits of information from your story.

The cover for the roller furling genoa---- was this sewn into the sail as a sacrificial UV cover by the sailmaker ?? How would you put a liner on that ?
It was a tube/sleave cover.

Quote:

I don't read where you have had any conversations with the sailmaker..?
The company that actually made the sails ? Where are they in this mix?
I'm not sure. My understanding is that the retailer contracts to have these sails made, and it is essentially their product line. The owner of the retail company apparently has been in the sailmaking business for a very long time.

BTW, I have no issues with the sails, only the stains from the covers, which they do not themselves manufacturer.
Quote:
Was your mainsail from a different manufacturer?
If so, you have two different sailmakers? ...both sails affected by the cover fabric,
Which would definitely point to the fabric....or were the sails made by the same company at different times?
The mainsail (7 yrs old) was made by Doyle. The genoa (new) was made by/for the retailer in question.
Quote:
the 3 companies you're talking to are the retailer, the cover maker, and the fabric manufacturer ?
Yes.

Quote:
...from what I've read, you have no verification that they tried to clean anything...or maybe they tried a few things, that didn't work, decided it wasn't their problem and quit.
Correct. I've asked several times for specifics about the cleaning, but have recieved no information.
Quote:
The first thing, I'd do is reach out to a quality sailmaker where you live and get their opinion on cleaning. If they are indeed fibres and not a dye stain they might be cleanable.

I'm guessing that the fabric manufacturer was not going to risk damaging your sails further trying to clean them and then clearly be liable for them.
They took the easy route, and passed the buck imo

I can't imagine who manufactued this material, I have a Navy Blue UV cover on my brand new headsail...and a the same on my brand new mainsail ( with no lining ) There's no fibre transfer, or dye leeching..
That's why I had suspected a faulty batch of cloth, where the colorfastness was defective.

I found it very annoying to repeatedly get responses along the lines of "we've never had a problem like this before" as if that would eliminate any possibility of defective cloth and their liability.

Quote:
I'd Talk to a good sailmaker....they may be cleanable...

If not, it might drive you crazy to try to get $ back from afar....keep the spare set, you may need them one day.
I've decided that, if I end up never getting a cent back for the damaged sails, I intend as a last resort to let folks know who the parties involved are, so they can avoid doing business with them (though given the market share of the fabric manufacturer in question, it'd be pretty tough to avoid their products, since they dominate most of the market... but I'm still not naming names, yet)
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Old 18-01-2009, 09:05   #25
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Hi Patrick,

If the Material Manufacturer is Sunbrella, ( Glen Raven ) I can't imagine that they would simply walk away from this. I use their products both personally and professionally.
They should, at the very least, provide you with written documentation of their tests their cleaning attempts and any disclaimers they want to make. Sunbrella has a variety of products for different applications, Furniture, Marine, Awnings, etc..

If they want to claim that their fabric was used in an inappropriate manner, or was fabricated inproperly I would have them provide that in writing.

While you're having a sailmaker look at your sails, I might take another run at the manufacturer to get a response in writing. I would send them a notarized, certified mail, letter requesting them to respond in writing.
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Old 18-01-2009, 10:02   #26
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I've decided that, if I end up never getting a cent back for the damaged sails, I intend as a last resort to let folks know who the parties involved are, so they can avoid doing business with them
Seeking advice from other members on your best course of action is a good idea. It may lead to options you might not have otherwise considered. Our members do try to act in good faith when giving advice. Many problems get solved that way. You do bear the entire responsibility of making decisions in this matter. It really is the very most we have to offer and we don't charge for it.

This is very different from a desire to cause harm to a business because the resolution of your customer service problem was not to your satisfaction. We won't risk our own reputation to help you.

Cruisers Forum will not permit any member to use us as an instrument to seek retribution against any person, company, or group for any reason you can convey or fail to convey. It is a policy unrelated to the merits of your problem, it's severity, or your deeply held convictions.

Writing a nasty letter or taking any legal action possible is your better option to consider. We feel it is in your better interest to seek solutions that favor the better nature of people and companies - it's cheaper.
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Old 18-01-2009, 10:26   #27
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I might add, that my recommendation would be not to write a nasty letter;
rather it should be " professional " and factual vs emotional, I might also copy the Retailer and the Fabtricator in all correspondence.
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Old 18-01-2009, 13:50   #28
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While the policies here should be honored...I would note that ALL the other sailing boards permit your to describe the problems and the companies you are dealing with and you should not hesitate to take advantage of them should a more conciliatory approach not work out.
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Old 18-01-2009, 15:17   #29
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Keep in mind that a court decision will only result in a judgement and not necesarrily payment.
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Old 18-01-2009, 15:31   #30
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Can you explain this furthermore Chief Engineer? I thought a judgment would imply some form of compensation.
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