Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-10-2013, 15:24   #1
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,198
Images: 4
Need advice from delivery skippers

Folks like atoll and others that have vast experience crossing oceans in many different types of boats.

My personal sailing experience is very limited. Even though I have a lot of miles, with the exception of my Cal 40 they have all been on large ships. My only sailboat experience is a Flying Junior as a kid and one solo run from Long Beach to Muluge on my Cal 40. That is it.

From this very limited experience, I am trying to decide what type of boat would be the safest and easiest to sail solo in my late 60's. I am leaning towards a boat like the Chris White Hammerhead 54 tri. My reasoning is since it is such an easily driven boat for the amount of sails up, it offers a wide speed range. This allows the obvious safety factor of quicker passages for shorter weather windows. The capability that I really want is to be able to shorten sail for the night watch and still make acceptable headway. Is this how it generally works for a performance tri? Nothing would make me happier than to maintain 6~8 kt in conditions that I could be going twice the speed in the daytime while alert and fully awake, but having reduced so much sail that even in a squall I don't have to fight the deck and reduce even more sail at night.
__________________

__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2013, 20:25   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
FSMike's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bahamas/Florida
Boat: Solaris Sunstar 36' catamaran
Posts: 2,654
Images: 5
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

Bob -

I don't have any trans-ocean miles, but in my experience your concept of how to slow the boat down at night works well on most any fast cruising multi.

My ex and I left out of Westend (Bahamas) one morning with a good breeze behind us and by afternoon we had seen 19 point something knots on the knotmeter surfing under spinnaker and full main. When the sun started getting low we took down the spinnaker in favor of the jib (about a 110 I think). We were still over 10 knots and the autopilot wasn't too happy, so we dumped the main entirely and the jib took us comfortably through the night averaging about 6-7 knots if I remember rightly.
This was on a 45' Chris White catamaran (Voyager 45).

A vessel like Chris White's Hammerhead is a lot higher performance than my present boat, an old 40' Norm Cross design trimaran. I will frequently throw the first reef in the main and use my smaller (90%) jib if I'm sailing at night or in squally weather. That depowers her enough to suit me, at least so far. If things got too bad I would lower the main and go to just the jib, assuming I'm not trying to point too close to the wind. In my case having a slower boat to start with makes it easier to slow down lol. With a boat like Hammerhead I would be tempted to drop the main or use more than one reef depending on what conditions I expected.

I think it was Jim Brown who said being able to take a boat capable of 10-12 knots and slow her down to 6-7 knots is a huge safety factor, not to mention a much more comfortable ride.

And it sure is nice to not sail on your ear.
__________________

__________________
Sail Fast Live Slow
FSMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2013, 20:40   #3
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,198
Images: 4
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

Mike, that was confirming. I love fast cars, my Cal 40 downwind was really fast and I enjoyed that. My thought process tells me if my boat is capable of 20+ kt, then rigging, mast and sails would give good life at 15 kt daytime, 8 kt at night and give a sweet ride. I'm hoping Alex (atoll) finds this thread. He has sailed a lot of different boats in all kinds of conditions.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 09:37   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Tortola
Posts: 700
Images: 1
Send a message via Yahoo to bvimatelot Send a message via Skype™ to bvimatelot
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

Pretty sound principles, methinks. I find, as I get older (but keep reminding myself that 60 is the "new 40") that, like it or not, one tends to lose a bit of upper body strength. Gone are the days when I could get a fully battened main on a 50ft+ cat cinched up just by swigging, using the winch for the last half inch or so. Nowadays, if I make the second spreader, I feel pretty good about it.

So: I've lowered my sights somewhat for my dream retirement boat: I don't want a huge one anymore (couldn't afford it or its insurance or its maintenance anyway!)

Lots of miles under my belt with cats but only coastal stuff with tri's so I can't add too much to the discussion. Tony (delivering a 46ft cat from the Med to Caribbean as I write.)
__________________
bvimatelot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 09:48   #5
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,198
Images: 4
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

Tony,

Thanks for the reply. As for insurance, I solo'ed in the past, probably will again so would be unable to get any insurance other than the needed liability, not hull for my own loss.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 10:12   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,312
Images: 75
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
Mike, that was confirming. I love fast cars, my Cal 40 downwind was really fast and I enjoyed that. My thought process tells me if my boat is capable of 20+ kt, then rigging, mast and sails would give good life at 15 kt daytime, 8 kt at night and give a sweet ride. I'm hoping Alex (atoll) finds this thread. He has sailed a lot of different boats in all kinds of conditions.
not that i have had a lot of experince on trimarans,i would say that a 54ft boat of any type would be a handfull for anybody solo!

my ideal boat if i was to retire and sail solo would be a cape dory 33ft,fast but seaworty enough to cross oceans.

i have found with many multis when the weather gets really bad you end up hand steering for safety,or hove too.

as you get older i don't think speed should be the criterea that makes you chose a vessel,rather stability,ease of handeling,fool proof systems,where you dont need to resort to brute force when they break.
a good engine with decent tankage,robust auto pilot,and back up.

large is fine as long as you anchor all the time,but docking on your own any boat over 40 ft in a strong cross wind can become very interesting!

with a smaller boat you are more likely to use it more often,as less to break,easier to get on and off the dock,and less time maintaining it
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 10:39   #7
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

I think hull length says little about how easy the boat is. To me it is all in sail area split and manageability. Then also in stability.

Amel 54 was the easiest "big" boat to run I have been on this far. BUT being mono, she rolls. So I would love something as well laid out and split as an Amel 54 and as stable and surefoot as a Lagoon 40.

Hence, to me, retirement on a cat sounds like the way to go. BUT not a 54' cat, unless they start coming with Amel's ketch rig ;-)

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 12:21   #8
Registered User
 
Capt Phil's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Stateline NV
Boat: Prior boats: Transpac 49; DeFever 54
Posts: 2,749
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

I'll second Atoll's comments. I had a Transpac 49, ketch, mono, for a number of years that I would single hand around the Sea of Cortez. It really became more than I could handle when I hit 60 yo. Even with a new younger partner, i didn't feel safe in a blow so we switched to power (gasp)! Lived aboard in SoCal for another 6-7 years but as health declined had to move to a dryer climate.
As long as weather cooperates and sea conditions are not overly bad, you can single hand well into your 70's I would think, but all it takes is one good blow, gear failure or health/injury issue and you are screwed big time.
As bernakiel points out, you need to have your vessel sorted out for single handed sailing. Amel's come from the factory pretty well prepared for single handing but there are still a few things to modify for ease of one person handling the vessel safely.
A 54 footer is a hell of a lot of boat for one person... who needs that much space?
As atoll says, a smaller boat is much more manageable for one person, cheaper and a lot easier to maintain. Phil
__________________
Capt Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 12:43   #9
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,198
Images: 4
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

I'm asking for advice and I appreciate receiving it. A 54' tri designed by Chris White probably doesn't have the interior volume of a PDQ 36 which is also under consideration. But the numbers seem to say both would be on the easy end of single handing.

PDQ 36

Main 640 sq ft
Displacement 10,000 lbs


Chris White 54' Tri

Main 858 sq ft
Displacement 17,000 lbs

The main reason I would consider the 54' Tri is how easily it is driven with small sails.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 12:49   #10
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,312
Images: 75
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
I'm asking for advice and I appreciate receiving it. A 54' tri designed by Chris White probably doesn't have the interior volume of a PDQ 36 which is also under consideration. But the numbers seem to say both would be on the easy end of single handing.

PDQ 36

Main 640 sq ft
Displacement 10,000 lbs


Chris White 54' Tri

Main 858 sq ft
Displacement 17,000 lbs

The main reason I would consider the 54' Tri is how easily it is driven with small sails.
ideal for a RTW non stop!,but the reality of cruising as you get older is you will probably be marina hopping ,looking for weather windows and motor sailing between nice locations,unless conditions are perfect for downwind sailing.

with a big boat every time you come to dock it will be a drama single handed
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 13:16   #11
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,718
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

Hi, deckofficer Bob,

Sorry, not a delivery skipper, but some minor feedback from this member of the peanut gallery.

Had friends who cruised on a 40 ft. tri. The motion was "twitchy", and incompatible with the woman's body. They quit after the Milk Run. They had seemed to be having a good time except for the seasickness.

Boatman 61 is currently delivering a largeish cat, and finds the "snappy" motion is not comfortable for him.

The rest of your plan, keeping the vessel so she'll go fast while underpowered, keeping the loads down for your body, all that sounds excellent. Our 46 ft. strip-plank wrc modern timber construction mono weighs about the same as the design weight of our 36 ft. predecessor. The jib is the same size. The long waterline (44ft.) made her capable of a 200 n. mi. run that we did under 1 reef in the main and staysail. The narrow entry but broad stern discourage her pitching. She is heaps more comfortable at sea, and has been big enough for the two of us for 10 yrs. With two guest cabins and a double in the forepeak, more than enough room for one, IMO.

So, I guess I'm suggesting you check out how you feel about the motion of the multihulls. The chances are good they'll be compatible, but if not, how much better to know before you spend the money.

A small part of the 54 ft. boat concept has to include that EVERYthing is more costly, and multihull berths that size are at a premium, at least in Australia.

In your shoes, if I were in the market today, I'd go look at monos (because of familiarity of sailing them, among other things), but outside the nine dots, so to speak. Go talk to Mainesail, and up to Minaret. What would be really good is a one off built by a boatbuilder for his own family to cruise in. Look at high quality, but smaller size. You can always fill up lots of space, but is that where you're at? Our boat was designed by Jon Sayer as a cruising boat. Would you be interested in havig a boat custom built? Or finding such a one second hand? Consider the Lidgard 45. There are a number of wonderful NZed boats waiting to be loved. Most of the large catamaran folks we have met don't seem to really care about the sailing. Mainly the folks who love sailing have monos. Please, am not wanting to offend anyone, and it's only an observation, please no one take it personally. My point is that deckofficer should experience the cats and tris, but not ignore the really good monohull possibilities out there.
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 14:29   #12
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,198
Images: 4
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

Ann,

Thank you so much for that reply and the time you spent. You are right, I need time on multihulls before deciding. I have sailed with my brother on his Corsair 28' Tri in Lake Tahoe and San Diego. Neither time had challenging conditions as far as sea state, Tahoe did have gusts. I liked how it responded to gusts, unlike my Cal 40 which would just heal further with no speed change because the gusts were short in time duration, his F28 would just accelerate during the gust. I liked that. Corsairs and Dragonflys are a consideration and with retracting amas would allow use of a mono's slip at a marina, but for as small a boats as they are, their price is near what a Hammerhead would be.

Maybe I should go back to the Cal 40?

Maybe I should add some more coin and go with a Dashew design?
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 19:36   #13
Registered User
 
DumnMad's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Nelson NZ; boat in Brisbane
Boat: 45ft Ketch
Posts: 1,248
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

A few months age a 73 year old cruised solo into Nelson NZ on a 48ft Bowman(British built) and after a month or so cruised off north for warmer climates. An experienced trans-ocean sailor. Loved his boat, much larger than his earlier ones but better gear. Faster and more comfortable.
__________________
DumnMad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 21:13   #14
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

Bob,
Personally, I think what you need is a motorsailer, if you're after a larger boat (over 40').

You can just motor the thing if the wind gets to be too much to handle and the sails are generally smaller. But one with a heavy rig so it can take whatever the wind/waves can dish out.

That would be the route I would take if it were in my budget. Any boat can be set up to single hand. I've certainly done it to my present boat (an old racer).

Although, it's good to have an auto pilot that will take a rough sea so that you can handle things on deck or below when need be even if it's only for a short run (power hungry).

With modern electronics with alarms these days one can single-hand fairly safe off-shore, staying way out from the shipping traffic. There's still the fisherman to watch out for but they usually run big lights at night.

You'll find when your out in the rough you'll be steering by hand most of the time. Auto pilots do not respond quick enough or at the right moment. One has to anticipate waves and wind when the going gets rough.

The problem I see with tri's is they are unstable in high winds. One big gust with sails up and over you go. Check the stats! One really needs to have good experience on tri's, and cat's for that matter, to go off shore.
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2013, 21:28   #15
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,198
Images: 4
Re: Need advice from delivery skippers

Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
Bob,
Personally, I think what you need is a motorsailer, if you're after a larger boat (over 40').

You can just motor the thing if the wind gets to be too much to handle and the sails are generally smaller. But one with a heavy rig so it can take whatever the wind/waves can dish out.

That would be the route I would take if it were in my budget. Any boat can be set up to single hand. I've certainly done it to my present boat (an old racer).

Although, it's good to have an auto pilot that will take a rough sea so that you can handle things on deck or below when need be even if it's only for a short run (power hungry).

With modern electronics with alarms these days one can single-hand fairly safe off-shore, staying way out from the shipping traffic. There's still the fisherman to watch out for but they usually run big lights at night.

You'll find when your out in the rough you'll be steering by hand most of the time. Auto pilots do not respond quick enough or at the right moment. One has to anticipate waves and wind when the going gets rough.

The problem I see with tri's is they are unstable in high winds. One big gust with sails up and over you go. Check the stats! One really needs to have good experience on tri's, and cat's for that matter, to go off shore.
Something like this?
1983 Wellington Pilothouse Motorsailer - Boats.com
__________________

__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
delivery, skipper

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:55.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.