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Old 05-03-2012, 22:36   #16
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Re: Narrowly avoided collision with motor yacht.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanStolze View Post
cutting directly across the channel on a semi-plane, likely making about 12+ knots.
To me the real point is crossing the channel thing.. so from port or starboard is irrelevant..
BR Teddy
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Old 05-03-2012, 22:47   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor
At night I have a million candle power spot plugged into the cockpit. I've had your scenario. Seems stink potters are a magnet for some reason...parking lot mentality. If I see a bow to beam bearing, I shine the light on the sail. If he still will not alter, I blast hime with the light for a second or two.
This is very common at night here. Not strictly within regs but we have the busiest port in the world. Tremendously tough light pollution background.

Very often boats will "ping" each other with spot lights, even giant commercial ships pinging sailboats. It isn't interpreted as rude. Its interpreted as, "Here I am do you see me?" a return ping means, "sure do."

Of course ais would help everyone radio call but not everyone is reporting. Pretty sure Singapore will eventually require ais transceivers on all boats.

Periodically I will also light up the sails for a moment or two. However wouldn't sail with deck lights on as they make night vision even worse. Also for prudence we light up like a power boat (steaming light) at night, follow power rules and are prepared to fire up the engine to evade at any time. No need to be asserting rights and end up "dead right."
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Old 05-03-2012, 22:48   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyDiver
To me the real point is crossing the channel thing.. so from port or starboard is irrelevant..
BR Teddy
Only if the channel boat is restricted and flying the right lights.

The power boat sounds like it was speeding in the channel though.
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Old 05-03-2012, 22:56   #19
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Re: Narrowly avoided collision with motor yacht.

If the OP was heading into Sausalito, the other vessel was probably coming from port I think, so the other vessel was the give-way one.
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Old 05-03-2012, 23:31   #20
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Re: Narrowly avoided collision with motor yacht.

I re read the post and sounds like the helmsman was away from the wheel doing deck work in prep for making land ! and was running on the iron mike!! so a proper watch was not being maintained !! how bout That ??? Just sayin
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Old 06-03-2012, 00:19   #21
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Re: Narrowly avoided collision with motor yacht.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
At night I have a million candle power spot plugged into the cockpit. I've had your scenario. Seems stink potters are a magnet for some reason...parking lot mentality. If I see a bow to beam bearing, I shine the light on the sail. If he still will not alter, I blast hime with the light for a second or two.
+1 - except I'm currently a stink potter some days, a sailor others.

But I would not think twice about lighting up the boat like a Christmas tree if I belived it would make us more visible in a tricky situation. In the real world job one is that they see us, job two is for them to identify what we are and which way we are going.

When sailing we always carried 2 white flares clipped alongside the helm and used them if at risk of not being seen by other vessels. But be warned they wipe out your night vision even through closed eyelids!

Cheers
John
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Old 06-03-2012, 00:29   #22
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Reading all the responses looks like a dogpile on poor Evan but aside from the otheer powerboat going a bit fast therre are questions.

If in fact the channel was crowded, and that channel does get crowded, it is a tough place to have crew on the deck putting the boat away as tempting as that is.

Evan "jumped" to the helm, indicating the helmsperson was not qualified to Evans standard to handle a crossing situation at night.

The conjecture the other powerboat was full of drunks could be just that, conjecture.

Evan indicated already he was the give way vessel and if I was at the helm of the other boat I might be going a tad fast but I had stand on rights and was probably confused when the yelling and horning started. In fact if I was crossing that channel at the end of the day, and knowing how much stuff needs to be stowed on a sailboat, I would be keeping an extra keen eye out for sailboats with the crew on deck and, heaven forbid, Otto driving.

Evan - I am not trying to dog pile and would love to hear if I am reading anything wrong here.
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Old 06-03-2012, 00:34   #23
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Re: Narrowly avoided collision with motor yacht.

BLOW YOUR HORN!

Just need to push the correct button.

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Old 06-03-2012, 01:51   #24
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Re: Narrowly avoided collision with motor yacht.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
To me the real point is crossing the channel thing.. so from port or starboard is irrelevant..
BR Teddy

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you saying the other vessel shouldn't be crossing the channel?
If so, that is incorrect. It is perfectly OK for any vessel to cross from one side of a channel to the other, unless there are local restrictions in place. In fact, there is no legal requirement to even travel in a channel (obviously if you don't have local knowledge or a ship with a 15m draught, staying in the channel is a good idea...).

EvanStolze, good on you for posting up this incident and opening up discussion. Ex-Calif is dead right that we shouldn't be dumping on you. We weren't there on the night and you are brave enough to share it with us...
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Old 06-03-2012, 05:30   #25
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Re: Narrowly avoided collision with motor yacht.

No one has mentioned slowing or stopping in order to avoid collision????
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Old 06-03-2012, 05:44   #26
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Re: Narrowly avoided collision with motor yacht.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfer Girl View Post
I'm not sure what you mean? Are you saying the other vessel shouldn't be crossing the channel?
If so, that is incorrect. It is perfectly OK for any vessel to cross from one side of a channel to the other, unless there are local restrictions in place. In fact, there is no legal requirement to even travel in a channel (obviously if you don't have local knowledge or a ship with a 15m draught, staying in the channel is a good idea...).

EvanStolze, good on you for posting up this incident and opening up discussion. Ex-Calif is dead right that we shouldn't be dumping on you. We weren't there on the night and you are brave enough to share it with us...
While it is perfectly OK for any vessel to cross a channel, there are rules that apply.
Rule 9, USCG COLREGS Inland: (The International Rule is essentially the same; but does not seem to apply here.)
(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel
shall not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only
within a narrow channel or fairway.

(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any
other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.

(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such
crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only
within that channel or fairway. The latter vessel shall use the danger
signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the
crossing vessel.

This does infer a burden to the "stand on" vessel to claim Restricted in Ability to Maneuver (Constrained by Draft) status by displaying the proper lights or shapes.

+1 to Evan for reminding us all about such situations.
When crossing, I'll always give way to a vessel in the channel/fairway on the assumption that they may be unable to or unfamiliar with navigating outside the ATONs.
In fact, staying in or near the channel can be safer because that is where, theoretically, you are most likely to find traffic and, especially, that is where the big boys are looking hardest!
It sounds like had the vessel in the channel been a container with limited visibility and no time to maneuver, this could have been a serious accident.

Rebel is right, head on a swivel and no distractions at the helm.
Just my $.02
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Old 06-03-2012, 07:53   #27
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Re: Narrowly avoided collision with motor yacht.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swagman View Post
+1 - except I'm currently a stink potter some days, a sailor others.

But I would not think twice about lighting up the boat like a Christmas tree if I belived it would make us more visible in a tricky situation. In the real world job one is that they see us, job two is for them to identify what we are and which way we are going.

When sailing we always carried 2 white flares clipped alongside the helm and used them if at risk of not being seen by other vessels. But be warned they wipe out your night vision even through closed eyelids!

Cheers
John
Present company excepted...
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:37   #28
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Re: Narrowly avoided collision with motor yacht.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivinSteve View Post
While it is perfectly OK for any vessel to cross a channel, there are rules that apply.
Rule 9, USCG COLREGS Inland: (The International Rule is essentially the same; but does not seem to apply here.)
(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel
shall not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only
within a narrow channel or fairway.

(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any
other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.

(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such
crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only
within that channel or fairway. The latter vessel shall use the danger
signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the
crossing vessel.

This does infer a burden to the "stand on" vessel to claim Restricted in Ability to Maneuver (Constrained by Draft) status by displaying the proper lights or shapes.

+1 to Evan for reminding us all about such situations.
When crossing, I'll always give way to a vessel in the channel/fairway on the assumption that they may be unable to or unfamiliar with navigating outside the ATONs.
In fact, staying in or near the channel can be safer because that is where, theoretically, you are most likely to find traffic and, especially, that is where the big boys are looking hardest!
It sounds like had the vessel in the channel been a container with limited visibility and no time to maneuver, this could have been a serious accident.

Rebel is right, head on a swivel and no distractions at the helm.
Just my $.02
Good on you for pointing this out. Rule 9 is one of the more widly ignored and misinterpreted rules in Colregs.

Vessels navigating in a restricted fairway are not in a "crossing situation" as described by the rules.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:41   #29
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Re: Narrowly avoided collision with motor yacht.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivinSteve View Post
While it is perfectly OK for any vessel to cross a channel, there are rules that apply.
Rule 9, USCG COLREGS Inland: (The International Rule is essentially the same; but does not seem to apply here.)
(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel
shall not impede the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only
within a narrow channel or fairway.

(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any
other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.

(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such
crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only
within that channel or fairway. The latter vessel shall use the danger
signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the
crossing vessel.

This does infer a burden to the "stand on" vessel to claim Restricted in Ability to Maneuver (Constrained by Draft) status by displaying the proper lights or shapes.

+1 to Evan for reminding us all about such situations.
When crossing, I'll always give way to a vessel in the channel/fairway on the assumption that they may be unable to or unfamiliar with navigating outside the ATONs.
In fact, staying in or near the channel can be safer because that is where, theoretically, you are most likely to find traffic and, especially, that is where the big boys are looking hardest!
It sounds like had the vessel in the channel been a container with limited visibility and no time to maneuver, this could have been a serious accident.

Rebel is right, head on a swivel and no distractions at the helm.
Just my $.02
Good on you for pointing this out. Rule 9 is one of the more widely ignored and misinterpreted rules in Colregs.

Vessels meeting while navigating in a restricted fairway are not in a "crossing situation" as described by rule 15. You do not have to be showing RAM or CBD for these to apply.

I would also like to point out that if there had been a collision and the other vessel's skipper had been drinking COLREGS would be thrown right out the window and that guy would probably just go to jail.
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:43   #30
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Re: Narrowly avoided collision with motor yacht.

I'm not concerned with being " dumped on " or I wouldn't have posted....that's how forums operate. In fairness, without actually being there it's tough to evaluate and make a solid judgement. I chose to post about my experience to see if anyone had any good ideas to aid in prevention, and as a reminder that there are people out there that we need to look out for. It is easy to relax and get complacent when you are close to your slip, especially after a long open water sail that's typically made in big water/wind, current, fog, and with really fast moving big " boats " to watch out for.

1) We were under power doing about 3-4 knots, nav lights on (including steaming light). We were the give-way vessel. Two of us on deck(myself included) and one at the helm. We were in the channel (5 knot max) and it was dark.

2) The stand on vessel cut through the channel at 90 degrees making at least 10 knots. It was partially on step and about 35' in length. They appeared " all of sudden " because they blazed through a # of anchored boats and emerged from behind them. I agree - yes, we should have seen them a little sooner than we did, but not much. Hence the reason I will have a dedicated lookout on the bow to assist the helmsman - with people on deck visibility is impaired.

3) Realizing that a collision was imminent, I took over the helm (I know my boat better than anyone, you would do the same), cut power and put her hard over to avoid them. They made no effort at all to avoid us or slow down. So, either they 1) still had not seen us or 2) intended to ram us. Yes, it is conjecture, but my guess it is the former.

The other vessel clearly violated the regs I cited earlier and would have been at fault - no question, whether or not the operator was drunk or not.

Certainly though, in the future I plan to:

1) Be more visible/ready to signal/attract attention .

2) Expect this sort of thing and have someone dedicated to looking for it (in addition the the helmsman).

3) As mentioned, in addition to the horn I keep at the ready (which they either did not hear or ignored), I'll keep a spotlight. Perhaps I'll run my new forward facing floodlight (position very high and angled up), but I want to get a look at Alsager from afar with it on to confirm that it doesn't make my nav lights any less distinct so I comply with the colregs.

Thanks for the suggestions regarding " pinging " and flaring up one's on boat. Certainly I will incorporate that.
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