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Old 27-04-2015, 16:36   #46
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

I wouldn't mind betting we will see some serious changes to the way this regatta is managed. Much like the 1979 Fastnet disaster and the 1998 Sydney to Hobart debacle.

I can understand those sailors saying how quickly it came. I've experience a sudden squall at 2am in the morning on a crossing. I didn't have a wind instrument at the time, but at a guess I think the wind went from an easy 10-15 to 30+ with gusts much more than that. To get the fore sail down I had to just let it loose. Couldn't see it coming, lasted 20 minutes and it was over.

But, this was a 'race', with organisers who have a duty of care. From what others have said, this adverse weather was predictable to an extent. Maybe not the extremes of the burst, but certainly the warnings were there.

And I'm quite flabbergasted that in an organised racing event like this that pfd's are not required as part of the race. And there is certainly time to get below and get them before this hit. You can see that in one of the video's.
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Old 28-04-2015, 05:19   #47
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Ticheli View Post
What kind of person runs over a boat and leaves the crew in the water? My candidate for Worst Person in the World.
'Light O Mobile' rescues 3 men stranded in the bay after Dauphin Island Regatta disaster | AL.com

I hope they find the culprit and throw them under the jail.

Fair winds,

Leo
That was just terrible. A thing that is completely unexpected among sailors and a criminal act. I hope we will be having more news about this and that boat "Captain".
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Old 28-04-2015, 05:38   #48
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
That was just terrible. A thing that is completely unexpected among sailors and a criminal act. I hope we will be having more news about this and that boat "Captain".
I'm somewhat surprised at the instant assumption that this boat "sailed away" out of negligence on the captain's part. After such a collision the "big" boat could have had rudder damage that meant that it was not under control. If it had any sail up it could simply have been blown away from the scene. I think people should reserve judgement until the other side of the story can be heard.
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Old 28-04-2015, 06:10   #49
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

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I'm somewhat surprised at the instant assumption that this boat "sailed away" out of negligence on the captain's part. After such a collision the "big" boat could have had rudder damage that meant that it was not under control. If it had any sail up it could simply have been blown away from the scene. I think people should reserve judgement until the other side of the story can be heard.
Yes, I believe that the other part should be heard but take a look at the description:

"The sailboat fell on its side at the pressure of the wind and rain, up-righted itself, and was knocked to its side a second time. As the boat was on its way to being upright once more, the crew saw a boat headed to them.

Goolsby said at first it seemed the boat was coming to offer assistance.

"But they kept coming fast and closer,
and finally Rob yelled 'They're going to hit us,'" Goolsby said. "And then they did."

The large, heavy boat hit the hull and the right side of the 4G, driving the rig down and underneath the oncoming vessel. "Ours hung underneath their's for a bit, then suddenly our boat took off and accelerated with their boat's speed," Goolsby said....

Cellamare said the larger boat "drove over top of them" crushing their boat.

"Our boat disappeared and we were there with the life ring with Rob and I hanging on," Cellamare said. "Larry jumped off the big boat into the water with us and they left. They just sailed away."


'Light O Mobile' rescues 3 men stranded in the bay after Dauphin Island Regatta disaster | AL.com

They are not talking about a boat in trouble that drifted toward them, they are talking a boat that sailed fast towards them (they thought they were coming for help) and after being rammed they don't say that the other boat drifted away, they say that the other boat sailed away and that means a controllable motion.

I think it is fair to conclude that they are not talking about a rudderless boat that drifted without control. Besides if that was that the case (and not a negligence case) the captain of the bigger boat would be worried sick with the situation, would have contacted the authorities describing the situation and the location of the accident, would have participated on the searches and would have contacted the survivors the moment they would turned out rescued and alive.

Contrary to all that it was the crew of the sunken boat that was trying to find the boat that had rammed his and left them on the water, not the other way around. It may turn out that there is an explication for what clearly appears to be a negligence act from the Captain of the bigger boat but surely it looks like that is a narrow chance.
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Old 28-04-2015, 10:42   #50
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

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Yes, I believe that the other part should be heard but take a look at the description:

"The sailboat fell on its side at the pressure of the wind and rain, up-righted itself, and was knocked to its side a second time. As the boat was on its way to being upright once more, the crew saw a boat headed to them.

Goolsby said at first it seemed the boat was coming to offer assistance.

"But they kept coming fast and closer, and finally Rob yelled 'They're going to hit us,'" Goolsby said. "And then they did."

The large, heavy boat hit the hull and the right side of the 4G, driving the rig down and underneath the oncoming vessel. "Ours hung underneath their's for a bit, then suddenly our boat took off and accelerated with their boat's speed," Goolsby said....

Cellamare said the larger boat "drove over top of them" crushing their boat.

"Our boat disappeared and we were there with the life ring with Rob and I hanging on," Cellamare said. "Larry jumped off the big boat into the water with us and they left. They just sailed away."

'Light O Mobile' rescues 3 men stranded in the bay after Dauphin Island Regatta disaster | AL.com

They are not talking about a boat in trouble that drifted toward them, they are talking a boat that sailed fast towards them (they thought they were coming for help) and after being rammed they don't say that the other boat drifted away, they say that the other boat sailed away and that means a controllable motion.

I think it is fair to conclude that they are not talking about a rudderless boat that drifted without control. Besides if that was that the case (and not a negligence case) the captain of the bigger boat would be worried sick with the situation, would have contacted the authorities describing the situation and the location of the accident, would have participated on the searches and would have contacted the survivors the moment they would turned out rescued and alive.

Contrary to all that it was the crew of the sunken boat that was trying to find the boat that had rammed his and left them on the water, not the other way around. It may turn out that there is an explication for what clearly appears to be a negligence act from the Captain of the bigger boat but surely it looks like that is a narrow chance.

I side with Capt Bill that we have one side of the story in a very frantic situation. Hate to speculate until the other side is presented. The whole thing happened much faster than the narrative reads.

-----

"There was no way we could sail the boat back against 70-mile-per-hour winds," Creekmore said.

"I've now sailed thousands and thousands of miles and I've never seen a situation come up so fast," he said.

---- That pretty much sums it up.

Drowned sailor's desperate final moments during Dauphin Island regatta described by boat captain | AL.com

So, based upon that, it would probably not "be fair to conclude" anything at this point...
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Old 28-04-2015, 10:59   #51
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

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...



So, based upon that, it would probably not "be fair to conclude" anything at this point...
And what would you say if the other side never show up? That's the situation right now.

Do you think normal or acceptable that a bigger boat run up over a smaller one, sunk it, leave the crew on the water and does not communicate immediately with the coast guard asking for a rescue, giving the position and relating the accident?

Besides this , that you quote from another sailor on another boat on another local:
"There was no way we could sail the boat back against 70-mile-per-hour winds," Creekmore said. " does not describe the conditions of the wind on the local of the accident.

Those wind conditions can be inferred by the description of the skipper of the sunk boat:

"The sailboat fell on its side at the pressure of the wind and rain, up-righted itself, and was knocked to its side a second time. As the boat was on its way to being upright once more, the crew saw a boat headed to them."

http://www.al.com/news/mobile/index....l#incart_river

They were sailing a catalina 22, did not had taken their sails out and there is no way a Catalina 22 could be sailed with 70K winds: The boat would be flat on the water and not raising up from a knock down, as they say.
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Old 28-04-2015, 11:22   #52
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

Wind shear brings down airliners and flattens sailboats. Like rogue waves, I don't think it can be predicted in advance. Conditions like this were very similar to my experience with one, it was brisk wind with lots of clouds. We were spreaders in the water for about 5 minutes. Then it was gone.
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Old 28-04-2015, 11:35   #53
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

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Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
I'm somewhat surprised at the instant assumption that this boat "sailed away" out of negligence on the captain's part. After such a collision the "big" boat could have had rudder damage that meant that it was not under control. If it had any sail up it could simply have been blown away from the scene. I think people should reserve judgement until the other side of the story can be heard.
Did that rudder damage also knock out their VHF, their mobile phones, and cause amnesia which prevented them from reporting the incident when they made it back home?

Perhaps the crew of the striking boat was incapacitated, their boat was subsequently lost, and they drowned.

I suppose it is within the realm of possibility that they had no communications gear to begin with, they were physically unable to make a report later, and their boat was indeed out of control, but that seems to be the most improbable set of circumstances.

Another possibility is that the three rescued sailors fabricated the whole story for reasons unknown. That's probably easier to take than a captain running them down and then leaving them to die in the water, but it's still unpleasant.

Fair winds,

Leo
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Old 28-04-2015, 11:49   #54
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

Polux,
You have made the assumption that the boat that hit the smaller boat was under control at the time of the collision. You have also concluded that he sailed away under control. Lastly you have assumed that the bigger boat was not one of the 10 that sank or were disabled during the storm. You have absolutely no evidence to support any of these assumptions. Perhaps the reason the other captain has not shown up is because he is one of the dead or missing. You have no clue as to the facts of the matter. The news reports have not named or described the "big" boat. The victims of the collision have not provided a description of the skipper of the boat in question. How do you know that skipper wasn't thrown overboard by the same gust that knocked down the smaller boat?

The fact is you don't have direct knowledge of any of this. You are just participating in the worst kind of internet speculation and accusation. You should really try to get a job in the American news media, as they seem especially skilled at this type of thing.
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Old 28-04-2015, 11:51   #55
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

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And what would you say if the other side never show up? That's the situation right now.

Do you think normal or acceptable that a bigger boat run up over a smaller one, sunk it, leave the crew on the water and does not communicate immediately with the coast guard asking for a rescue, giving the position and relating the accident?
You are speculating that they did not call the CG after the incident. You are also speculating that they did not report it once ashore. We are still in search and rescue and until everyone turns up or the search is called and names released, there is nothing to share with the public in that regard.

I am pointing out that it may not be fair to speculate until more information comes out. Lee Creekmore is very accomplished and conditions did not allow him to turn back to go after his crew member who went overboard without a PFD and perished as a result. That would add merit to at least waiting before further speculation until we get the full story, and we will.

To answer your question, I do not feel it is acceptable IF it happened in the narrative you presented it and they will pay for it. But I also don't feel it is fair to speculate until we have all the answers.
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Old 28-04-2015, 12:52   #56
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

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Polux,
You have made the assumption that the boat that hit the smaller boat was under control at the time of the collision. You have also concluded that he sailed away under control. Lastly you have assumed that the bigger boat was not one of the 10 that sank or were disabled during the storm. You have absolutely no evidence to support any of these assumptions. Perhaps the reason the other captain has not shown up is because he is one of the dead or missing. You have no clue as to the facts of the matter. The news reports have not named or described the "big" boat. The victims of the collision have not provided a description of the skipper of the boat in question. How do you know that skipper wasn't thrown overboard by the same gust that knocked down the smaller boat?

The fact is you don't have direct knowledge of any of this. You are just participating in the worst kind of internet speculation and accusation. You should really try to get a job in the American news media, as they seem especially skilled at this type of thing.
If you read what they said you could take away a lot of assumptions you make:

"The large, heavy boat hit the hull and the right side of the 4G, driving the rig down and underneath the oncoming vessel. "Ours hung underneath their's for a bit, then suddenly our boat took off and accelerated with their boat's speed," Goolsby said."

'Light O Mobile' rescues 3 men stranded in the bay after Dauphin Island Regatta disaster | AL.com

They were sailing a Catalina 22 and they describe the other boat as " large heavy boat". We know that the 10 boats that sunk or were disable on that squall were dinghies or small cats and sailboats. None of the bigger yacht were disabled or sunk so we can assume the large and heavy yacht that hit and sunk the Catalina 22 was not sunk or disabled.
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Old 28-04-2015, 12:59   #57
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

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You are speculating that they did not call the CG after the incident. You are also speculating that they did not report it once ashore. We are still in search and rescue and until everyone turns up or the search is called and names released, there is nothing to share with the public in that regard.

I am pointing out that it may not be fair to speculate until more information comes out. Lee Creekmore is very accomplished and conditions did not allow him to turn back to go after his crew member who went overboard without a PFD and perished as a result. That would add merit to at least waiting before further speculation until we get the full story, and we will.

To answer your question, I do not feel it is acceptable IF it happened in the narrative you presented it and they will pay for it. But I also don't feel it is fair to speculate until we have all the answers.
Lee Creekmore was sailing on 70K winds. The Catalina 22 obviously was not. With 70K winds it would be flat on the water, not sailing and suffering a knock out from time to time.

As I said previously "It may turn out that there is an explication for what clearly appears to be a negligence act from the Captain of the bigger boat but surely it looks like that is a narrow chance."

Educated speculation is what we do on a forum before all the information is released and sometimes there is just no more information: the Captain of the boat that rammed the Catalina can chose not to communicate the accident and it is possible his yacht never to be identified.

It seems there are several sailors from the area on this thread so if the yacht is identified we will know about it as well why he did not tried to help. If the Yacht is not identified and the Captain doesn't come forward we can assume gross negligence.
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Old 28-04-2015, 14:51   #58
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

I read "Larry" jumped from the big boat. More find fault than answers.

The wind was to blame. Not wearing pfd's was a likely cause of fatalities.


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Old 28-04-2015, 15:00   #59
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile



Our hearts and prayers go out to all affected by this tragedy. Being from the gulf coast and having sailed Mobile Bay many times and lived aboard in Dog River on and off over the years it has hit home for us.

I usually turn to music to express my thoughts. For me it says what I am feeling inside better than words. I had these same feelings back when we lost Low Speed Chase in the Farallon Islands race, even though I have never been or sailed there and again at the loss of the Agean out of SanDiego. Stan Rogers simply says it all in "White Squall".

Hope no one is offended, if so, that is not my intention.
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Old 28-04-2015, 15:56   #60
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Re: Multiple boat capsize off Mobile

I was planning on going to the regatta as a spectator- I live on Mobile Bay. After watching the weather we choose to head to LA for the weekend and mosey through MS and LA.
If I could figure out how to upload the video you will see this was not a micro burst, this was a full out storm.
I feel for every person touched. 2 of my neighbors were in the regatta, one of the missing was on his boat. They had a hold of him and a wave hit and that was the last they saw of him.
It was horrible but avoidable, as unpopular as that statement is, it's true.
Other friends were going to be in it and after looking at weather data they chose to skip it and are glad they did. These are small boats, not blue water boats. The bay gets bad and you could see it coming.
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