Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Coops

You must have got a very lucky run there. With prevailing southerlies and heading south all the way that is a sod of a sailing trip. I have never been that lucky.

Coops.

We've had southeasterlies too. Which is standard fare for up here. But you can still sail south in them.

Even in a cat, which as everyone "knows", can't sail to windward.

This trip has been a bit of a revelation to me. I've discovered that the "awesome windward sailing ability" of a lot of monohulls seems to be directly related to their consumption of diesel.

The trip from Lizard Island to Cooktown was particularly surprising. 15-20 knot south-easterly. We did it 2-4 hours faster than the 4 mono's, then discovered they'd motorsailed the whole way! We didn't even need to tack, it was just a close hauled sail all the way to cape Bedford, then ease the sheets a little.

Admittedly, 2 monos were faster from Cooktown to Hope islets, in around 7-10 knot southeasterlies. They didn't bother with the pretence. They never even raised their sails.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

I fully agree with the charter for testing. I do that when I have any doubts and you can believe that in the end you will be quite sure of your choice.

In what regards accommodations it seems to me that what you want is a big living area, three large cabins and a big deck area. In what regards monohulls it seems to me that the Sense 55 fits the bill:

It is possible that you and your family would be satisfied even with the Sense 50:

Besides lots of space both boats offer a big storage area, sail well are easy to sail solo and come with a computerized docking system that makes it very easy. They also sail with very little heel (15/17º).

Regarding cats here you have two popular cats on that range, the Helia 44 and the Leopard 44:

All boats are not faraway in price and depending on option should cost between 550 000 USD and 600 000.

Not saying in any way that you would not prefer a cat but that would be just a matter of taste, not a matter of space: Taste in what regards sailing and sailing motion, taste about the type of space. Charter both type of boats is a great idea to decide what you and your family prefer.

After testing the monohull and the cat please keep us posted.

The "Sense" is supposedly a cruising boat, yet there is no provision for dinghy storage. Where's the sense in that?

Edit: Possibly the bigger one does have a small space under the transom, but only for a pretty small inflatable. Both boats should have decent davits.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

Here you have one sailing offshore at 2 digit speeds:

OK so you get out of le Marin and sail at 2 digit speeds towards the Diamond Rock.

And how do you come back? In le truck?

Pogo 30 vs. (anything) say Hellia is oranges vs. snails. You can't, you should not, they wouldn't.

It may allright be an offshore boat but for a far out racing crew. My gf would like it, that's what makes her special and precious. All other ladies would go with that guy in his Hellia of a boat.

b.

[Coops]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

We've had southeasterlies too. Which is standard fare for up here. But you can still sail south in them.

Even in a cat, which as everyone "knows", can't sail to windward.

This trip has been a bit of a revelation to me. I've discovered that the "awesome windward sailing ability" of a lot of monohulls seems to be directly related to their consumption of diesel.

The trip from Lizard Island to Cooktown was particularly surprising. 15-20 knot south-easterly. We did it 2-4 hours faster than the 4 mono's, then discovered they'd motorsailed the whole way! We didn't even need to tack, it was just a close hauled sail all the way to cape Bedford, then ease the sheets a little.

Admittedly, 2 monos were faster from Cooktown to Hope islets, in around 7-10 knot southeasterlies. They didn't bother with the pretence. They never even raised their sails.

I was only commenting on how lucky you were, or perhaps, complimenting you on your sailing skills. I do not see that it warranted a barrage of insults at monohulls and their owners.

Coops.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

..
Even in a cat, which as everyone "knows", can't sail to windward.

...

Yes, regarding the same type of boat (cats and monohulls) with the same program the monohulls point substantially better.

In good conditions I can point to 23º of the apparent wind. How much can you point? The last time I sailed upwind with a cat (a modern one) my wife asked me where they were going? (they where pointing to the open sea). I told her that they could not do better but she did not believed me. She only believe me when we were arriving to our destination and she saw the same cat arriving at the same time as us...without sails and motoring upwind.

You know stories like mine or yours can be very entertaining but have no meaning in what regards cruising performance. In my case it only means that my performance cruiser was way faster upwind than a Leopard, that is a condo cat.

To be able to take some interesting conclusions you need to have boats of several types in identical conditions of charge and have to have a considerable number to be possible to have a significant average, There will be always some monos and cats very well sailed with a better and bigger crew that will be faster than the average, others very slow, but the average is meaningful.

With over 300 boat on the ARC, all loaded for a transat you can have some meaningful results, at least for the conditions encountered on that particular year.

Your story or mine have no statistic relevant. You did not ever said what type of size where those monohulls and I bet they were not fast performance cruisers (like your cat), because if they were they would not be motoring in 7/10K southerlies. With 7K upwind I can sail near 7K and point higher then you and I have only a 41ft monohull.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

OK so you get out of le Marin and sail at 2 digit speeds towards the Diamond Rock.

And how do you come back? In le truck?

Pogo 30 vs. (anything) say Hellia is oranges vs. snails. You can't, you should not, they wouldn't.

It may allright be an offshore boat but for a far out racing crew. My gf would like it, that's what makes her special and precious. All other ladies would go with that guy in his Hellia of a boat.

b.

I don't understand your questions. You are implying that the Pogo 30 does not sail well upwind? Of course upwind is not as fast as downwind, being more limited by its size (LWL) but it is fast and reach hull speed with very light winds going at wind speed or close. In fact it will point way better than a condo cat but that is no surprise since it is a performance boat with a very deep keel and twin rudders.

Here you have a comparison of his bigger sister (Pogo 10.50), that has the same type of hull, with one of the fastest boats upwind, a racing Xyacht of the same size, the X35.

As you can see the comparison is flattering for Pogo, at least in flat water. With waves the X35 will improve its performance regarding the Pogo, but the Pogo will still be a damn fast boat, faster than almost all performance cruisers of the same size and with weak wind faster than much bigger boats.



Regarding the Helia I really don't understand: What has the Helia, a 44ft condo cat has to do with a very fast 30ft performance cruiser? Even if on a Transat the Pogo 30 will be much faster they don't point to the same type of sailors and one that will be happy sailing a Pogo will be bored to dead sailing a Helia and the ones that likes a Helia would find the Pogo small and spartan.

The Pogo with a racing crew? it seems you don't know that the Pogo is directly derived from Mini solo racers. It's a boat specially adapted to be sailed by a single sailor.

Off course the boat points to sailors that does not only like to cruise but also that like and enjoy sailing, It is not a boat for a beginner but not a difficult boat to sail (quite the contrary) for an average sailor. I would not have any problem with a Pogo, in fact I have sailed similar boats and they are not more difficult then my own, probably less. Of course my boat is also a boat not for beginners and for someone that enjoys not only cruising but sailing. Not a problem for an average sailor, I mean I am talking about the ones that like sailing, not about the ones that use sailing just for cruising and are indifferent about it.

Boats are like cars: It's a bad idea to put a 500hp Porsche on the hands of a beginner not because the car would be difficult to drive or unsafe (quite the contrary) but because all that power need experience to be used.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

(...)

Boats are like cars: It's a bad idea to put a 500hp Porsche on the hands of a beginner not because the car would be difficult to drive or unsafe (quite the contrary) but because all that power need experience to be used.

I am 100% with you that it is a great boat and will sail very well downwind. It will also sail upwind.

Good choice for an out and out racing pedigree zen minded cruiser.

b.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Coops

I was only commenting on how lucky you were, or perhaps, complimenting you on your sailing skills. I do not see that it warranted a barrage of insults at monohulls and their owners.

Coops.

Barrage of insults? They were facts. Is the truth so insulting to monohulls? (In fact can a boat even feel insulted?)

The owners wouldn't feel insulted. It was them who told me they had motored after all.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I am 100% with you that it is a great boat and will sail very well downwind. It will also sail upwind.

Good choice for an out and out racing pedigree zen minded cruiser.

b.

Let's stay on the sportive cruisers with a zen mind and take the racing out of the equation. In fact Pogo has two lines, cruisers and racers and if one want to race almost all will chose a racer.

You may think it is not the case but I know 4 or 5 owners of cruising Pogos and similar boats and even if all of then fit on my description none of them races his boat that is used only to cruise or to enjoy sailing. One of them is even a long range cruiser, having crossed the Atlantic both ways and thinking about a circumnavigation (Pogo 12.50).

Have a look at his blog:

Pogo 12.50 "Easy"

[tbodine88]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

22'? Are you sure?

On reflection, I guess it was 25 or 28 feet, but I know it was shorter LOA than my boat, but of course it was taller. I wish I knew the brand, all I know is it was French.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

(...)

One of them is even a long range cruiser, having crossed the Atlantic both ways and thinking about a circumnavigation (Pogo 12.50).

Have a look at his blog:

Pogo 12.50 "Easy"

Yep.

But this is not what 99% of cruisers want to do nor how they want to do it.

BTW Why is she loaded on (off?) a DYT ship? Is this how they crossed the Atlantic?

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Yep.

But this is not what 99% of cruisers want to do nor how they want to do it.

BTW Why is she loaded on (off?) a DYT ship? Is this how they crossed the Atlantic?

b.

it seems that the boat come home in a ship. Maybe he didn't have the time to bring the boat home.

Here is a movie of the crossing:

Pogo 12.50 Transat - YouTube

Don't seem to me your 99% are right. A lot more are many doing it in fast cruising boats, cats and monohulls alike, at least in what regards those that can do it in recent boats.

Go to the ARC 2013 results and see that the number of fast boats is big. Some do it on the racing division, but it is not serious racing, just a way of having some fun crossing the Atlantic on the way to the Caribbean. The really racing crews are very few on the Rally but I am only referring the ones on the cruising division.

On the last edition, on the Cruising division a much smaller Pogo 30 had done the crossing in 13 days and 14 hours (it was a bad year) while a Beneteau Oceanis 473 took 18 days 06 hours, another one 18days 14 hours, an Halberg Rassy 19 14d 15h, an Island Packet 15days 11 hours, a Moddy 422 19 days 00h, a Trintella 57 19days 20 hours ....Yes, it can be more uncomfortable but also much more fun, if you like sailing and ...almost more a week at the sea is also not very comfortable

Take into account that the bigger boats motored a lot, having big diesel tanks while tanks, while the little Pogo only wasted 33L on the crossing, probably mostly to charge the batteries.

On the racing division a cruising Pogo 12.50 crossed in 10days 20 h and 0L of diesel, as all on the racing division.

Only on the 2013 Transat you had 3 cruising Pogos and that makes for the 1% you refer but that is just a brand. There was a lot of very fast cruising boats from other brands.

I would not mind to make a Transat on a Pogo, quite the contrary but I would have preferred the 12.50 to the 30ft boat and even more the cruising Pogo 50 that on the 2012 Transat crossed in 8 Days 20 hours.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

(...)

Go to the ARC 2013 results and see that the number of fast boats is big. Some do it on the racing division, but it is not serious racing, just a way of having some fun crossing the Atlantic on the way to the Caribbean. The really racing crews are very few on the Rally but I am only referring the ones on the cruising division.

(...)

I would not mind to make a Transat on a Pogo, quite the contrary but I would have preferred the 12.50 to the 30ft boat and even more the cruising Pogo 50 that on the 2012 Transat crossed in 8 Days 20 hours.

We have witnessed 6 ARC take offs (2003, 2008, 9, 10, 11, 12) and we are in Las Palmas marina right now. You can trust in my intimate picture of what is being sailed in the ARC. I also know their timing and where it comes from as I have been delivering wx and routing services to a big number of ARC and post ARC cruisers (on their way back home to Europe as well as on their ways onwards beyond Panama).

Sure, modern boats are faster off the wind than most older boats. But it is one thing to sail a light boat that is fast off the wind and another to be sailing a Pogo, even if we talk a cruising line of Pogo.

The P50 you are talking about was a factory boat with professional crew. many racers take up such stunts for factory prototypes with Pogo, Outremer, etc. higher end companies. I would not measure, however, a typical cruising boat with the same stick.

Cruising is elsewhere. Cruising is a retired mamma and pappa following the sun in their well equipped, well insured, well behaved boat. And, at times, a younger couple in their old and somewhat restored clunker. They all are sailing their dreams. The older ones can afford the fast boat but neither have the skills to drive one nor the will to suffer any discomfort. The younger ones may want the Pogo, but they cannot afford one.

The bunch of people sailing Pogos and Outremers are sailors. And those of them who are not, make the 1% I had in mind.

So to say we are talking the same concept just using different vocabulary. I think so.

PS I would not mind cruising in a Pogo 40 either. I am in the 'can't afford' group quickly moving into the 'comfortably follow the sun' one. ;-)

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

We have witnessed 6 ARC take offs (2003, 2008, 9, 10, 11, 12) and we are in Las Palmas marina right now. You can trust in my intimate picture of what is being sailed in the ARC. I also know their timing and where it comes from as I have been delivering wx and routing services to a big number of ARC and post ARC cruisers (on their way back home to Europe as well as on their ways onwards beyond Panama).

Sure, modern boats are faster off the wind than most older boats. But it is one thing to sail a light boat that is fast off the wind and another to be sailing a Pogo, even if we talk a cruising line of Pogo.

The P50 you are talking about was a factory boat with professional crew. many racers take up such stunts for factory prototypes with Pogo, Outremer, etc. higher end companies. I would not measure, however, a typical cruising boat with the same stick.

Cruising is elsewhere. Cruising is a retired mamma and pappa following the sun in their well equipped, well insured, well behaved boat. And, at times, a younger couple in their old and somewhat restored clunker. They all are sailing their dreams. The older ones can afford the fast boat but neither have the skills to drive one nor the will to suffer any discomfort. The younger ones may want the Pogo, but they cannot afford one.

The bunch of people sailing Pogos and Outremers are sailors. And those of them who are not, make the 1% I had in mind.

So to say we are talking the same concept just using different vocabulary. I think so.

PS I would not mind cruising in a Pogo 40 either. I am in the 'can't afford' group quickly moving into the 'comfortably follow the sun' one. ;-)

b.

Nice post I have not a Pogo in fact I have a boat with very different sailing characteristics but a fast boat anyway. I hope to make the ARC in two years or so, maybe we meet there. Regarding that Pogo 50 not properly a professional crew or at least not all, two were class 40 racers (a couple) but the others were the boat owner, the owner of the shipyard and the boat designer (Pascal Conq).



Regarding Conq we can say that is not one of those NAs that can be accused of not knowing how his boats sail offshore, or in an Atlantic crossing

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

(...)

Regarding Conq we can say that is not one of those NAs that can be accused of not knowing how his boats sail offshore, or in an Atlantic crossing

I am following you. That was a proto I think. Or else No 1, if there was any proto. With their earlier experience from Pogo thru Pogo40 in all their colours there was indeed not too much to validate.

I think this example is twice valuable as it shows some designers / builders are sailors, while others clearly are not. This too explains why some boats sail while others are a never ending digest for various never ending forum wars.

If you are into that ARC thing, look up Winwin (by Baltic). She will be sailed this year. Leopard is here too. I think you might like both, much as Winwin is definitely the easier, cruising optimised one. Prettier too!

Cheers,
b.