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Old 09-03-2017, 15:22   #121
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
You think this is the first time I'm being challenged for citations? You actually think that I will take the effort to look them up, post them here and believe that y'all will write something like "okay, you got the references so you're right and we were wrong"? You must also be joking! Oh arrogant I am; get in line, you're number 1,276 posting that about me on this forum :-) You know that it's kind of an honor to be called arrogant here because most of the naval architects that were member have been called that as well and all left. Because the members here knew better. If there would still be one here and agree with me telling you that the catamaran rigging wire size is based on models tuned until dismastings stopped instead of calculations, do you think y'all would then agree and admit to be wrong? Of-course you wouldn't, you would try to disqualify him/her or would come up with another argument.



Like I said, life's too short for that cr@p; if you call that lazy then that's fine with me. Has it occurred to you that something can be correct without citation given? A rigger came up with the same and now riggers are monkeys that know nothing is what we hear. Whenever we come up with the goal you move the posts. There's no end to that. So how about the flury of Gunboat dismastings? Why is that ignored when I come up with it? It's staring you in the face: evidence. You really think they made an error in their math? You think they re-did the calculations, found the error and corrected that? Or may be I'm right and they just upped the safety margins in their computer model....



Just Google "catamaran dismasting" and citations fill your screen


I suspected you had no citations. You can get in a flap and carry on, that's fine, but expect to be called out when you expect others to provide citations where you won't. Especially when you start using words like ignorant and so on.

I've already googled rigging load calculations for multis and I can't see confirmation of your statements. Your google suggestion is just ridiculous.

You've written a long post yet answered none of my questions. I think that, along with no citations, answers to your credibility on this.
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Old 09-03-2017, 15:25   #122
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Yo... I'm a little cornfused. We've experienced 40-50 knots continuous for ten hours and 50-60 knot gusts which have rounded us up on occasion here in the Med.

I don't recall having our mast come down on us.

I've actually heard the suggestion directly from the Leopard cat sales people that the rigs are designed to let go prior to capsize, so I'm thinking the cat here in the Med had that happen. Huge load on the rig, maybe a skipper surprised by the load or underestimating the load, then bam! Down it comes prior to capsize like it should.
If you refer to your YouTube vid is a whole diferent history, like i say any rig carring a decent amount of sail or litle in 50 knts in the classic short step seas you can found in the med are serious bussines for any rig...

I hear the same history few times in this fórum, Rigging in a multi act like a fuse, well let me tell you is BS, if the rigging act like a fuse then i dont understand why a multihull can capsize..
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Old 09-03-2017, 15:44   #123
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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If you refer to your YouTube vid is a whole diferent history, like i say any rig carring a decent amount of sail or litle in 50 knts in the classic short step seas you can found in the med are serious bussines for any rig...

I hear the same history few times in this fórum, Rigging in a multi act like a fuse, well let me tell you is BS, if the rigging act like a fuse then i dont understand why a multihull can capsize..
Then why did I hear this "fuse" theory first-hand from the Leopard factory representative at the Newport, RI boatshow? Why would they be telling me "B.S." while trying to sell me on the safety of their very own catamarans?

To me it made sense.
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Old 09-03-2017, 15:52   #124
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Multihull in distress.

I've asked about this fuse theory to outremer, seawind and FP and I've also asked a rigger here in Sydney who does a lot of work on multis and a bunch of Syd-Hobart boats. The manufacturers all said no and the rigger laughed at the idea.

I've searched google for any cat ops manuals or anything with some semblance of officialdom that confirms that this is the case and turned up nothing.

This is the first I've heard of anyone representing any manufacturer to 'suggest' to it. What exactly did this guy say?

Edit to add: I can't see how this makes sense when you consider the legal liabilities involved when a designed for failure brings the rig crashing on the owner. A more general point, if what Jedi is saying is true regarding it being impossible to calculate forces for rig loading on a multi then building a fuse in would be impossible
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Old 09-03-2017, 15:55   #125
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Then why did I hear this "fuse" theory first-hand from the Leopard factory representative at the Newport, RI boatshow? Why would they be telling me "B.S." while trying to sell me on the safety of their very own catamarans? To me it made sense.
fuse works sometimes, not always. Like flu vaccine. I see no fuse on my cat. But then was in 45 kn surprise and didn't get any hint of flipping. 84 m2 sails in 12 T boat 7.25m wide, is not that easy to flip. Maybe that is why every subsequent lagoon gets allocates more weight and less sail area.
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Old 09-03-2017, 15:55   #126
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pirate Re: Multihull in distress.

First logical reason they are not used as a 'Fuse' is falling masts break things.. and can kill folk and sink/render useless boats as for example the catamaran in question in this thread.. maybe the guy at the boatshow was just another bullshitter broker making it up as he went along.. whats a little white lie if it gets a sale..
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Old 09-03-2017, 16:00   #127
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Re: Multihull in distress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Then why did I hear this "fuse" theory first-hand from the Leopard factory representative at the Newport, RI boatshow? Why would they be telling me "B.S." while trying to sell me on the safety of their very own catamarans?

To me it made sense.
BS...BS...BS....
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Old 09-03-2017, 16:02   #128
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
First logical reason they are not used as a 'Fuse' is falling masts break things.. and can kill folk and sink/render useless boats as for example the catamaran in question in this thread.. maybe the guy at the boatshow was just another bullshitter broker making it up as he went along.. whats a little white lie if it gets a sale..
He was not "just another bullshitter broker" as you refer to salespeople. There were three people in attendence during the conversation in addition to me, the Leopard broker, the Leopard factory Representative and a Leopard delivery skipper, each..... with an official South African accent.

They seemed very sincere in their explanation, and I was impressed by the fact that the demo boat had just been sailed across the Atlantic for the show.
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Old 09-03-2017, 16:03   #129
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
First logical reason they are not used as a 'Fuse' is falling masts break things.. and can kill folk and sink/render useless boats as for example the catamaran in question in this thread.. maybe the guy at the boatshow was just another bullshitter broker making it up as he went along.. whats a little white lie if it gets a sale..
Boatie, I am shocked, the cynicism, unbelievable.
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Old 09-03-2017, 16:08   #130
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pirate Re: Multihull in distress.

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Boatie, I am shocked, the cynicism, unbelievable.
Could be down to the amount of 'Salespeople' who barely know the product they're selling or.. prepared to lie about it..
VW and others spring to mind..
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Old 09-03-2017, 16:15   #131
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Re: Multihull in distress.

I reckon losing a mast on a sv is a pis poor fuse.
Unless you carry a spare.
Now, the ability to heel and shed load with an auto reset...that is a fuse.
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Old 09-03-2017, 16:37   #132
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Catamaran’s are designed to lose their mast at 50 knots with FULL SAILS up

s/v Jedi and Kenomac are correct.

They are just leaving out that Catamaran’s are designed to lose their mast at 50 knots with FULL SAILS UP.

At 50 Knots you should have NO SAILS UP on a catamaran.

All catamarans are designed with a Safe Sail Plan and Reefing Chart.

If you violate the design of the catamaran’s Safe Sail Plan and Reefing Chart you hit the limit of its design and risk losing the mast .

It’s much better to lose a mast then to let the catamaran flip over.
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Old 09-03-2017, 16:52   #133
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Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
First logical reason they are not used as a 'Fuse' is falling masts break things.. and can kill folk and sink/render useless boats as for example the catamaran in question in this thread.. maybe the guy at the boatshow was just another bullshitter broker making it up as he went along.. whats a little white lie if it gets a sale..


I can hear the official Sth African accent. "Oh bru, sorry to hear our rigging fuse brought the rig down putting several holes in her and causing extensive water damage. Totally not lekker eh bru. Tell you what eh bru, we'll give you a credit note worth the price of the rigging redeemable against a new leopard and we'll have a few crowns and a braai"



Apologies to all Sth Africans for my 'humour'
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Old 09-03-2017, 16:53   #134
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pirate Re: Catamaran’s are designed to lose their mast at 50 knots with FULL SAILS up

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
s/v Jedi and Kenomac are correct.

They are just leaving out that Catamaran’s are designed to lose their mast at 50 knots with FULL SAILS UP.

At 50 Knots you should have NO SAILS UP on a catamaran.

All catamarans are designed with a Safe Sail Plan and Reefing Chart.

If you violate the design of the catamaran’s Safe Sail Plan and Reefing Chart you hit the limit of its design and risk losing the mast .

It’s much better to lose a mast then to let the catamaran flip over.
.
.
At 50kts only a moron would have full sails up be they catamaran or mono..
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Old 09-03-2017, 16:55   #135
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Re: Multihull in distress.

I believe the "fuse" theory has actually been proven by the fact that the ill fated catamaran which this thread is about, survived in an upright position with the rig collapsed. The skipper, for whatever reason, had too much sail up during a 50 knot plus gale.... something's gotta give, otherwise the cat is tipping over.

Look's to me like a well-designed boat with a safety factor built in to prevent catastrophy. The evidence is right there in the pictures... boat still afloat upright, with rig hanging off the side with a sail still attached.
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