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Old 09-03-2017, 05:34   #106
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Why?

Assuming the original design was done by a qualified guy and the boat is otherwise not significantly modified, no reason replacing in kind shouldn't work fine.
Assuming your boat is a on off or custom design with no previous rig info its the rigger dutty to design a rig for you.. Happen a lot, unless its a mass production boat where you can open the spar catalog and found the exact replacement.

What i mean is when you have the bad luck to loose your rig , you rely in a reputable spar & rigging comp, if you dont trust a rigger to design a rig for you obviously you cant trust it for the basic, like replace a cotter pin..
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Old 09-03-2017, 05:38   #107
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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It's a common myth, that staying aboard during salvage, prevents a "loss of ownership". Ownership is not lost in any case -- salvage does not transfer ownership of the vessel, which stays with the owner unless and until a court executes a lien on the vessel to force the payment of a valid salvage claim.

The size of the salvage award, however, may be influenced by the degree to which the owner stays on board and actively participates in the process, so I'm not saying, by any means, that it's a bad idea.


"There are several factors that would be considered by a court in establishing the amount of the salvor’s award. Some of these include the difficulty of the operation, the risk involved to the salvor, the value of the property saved, the degree of danger to which the property was exposed, and the potential environmental impacts. It would be a rare case in which the salvage award would be greater than 50 percent of the value of the property salvaged. More commonly, salvage awards amount to 10 percent to 25 percent of the value of the property."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine...Afloat_salvage
Wandering off topic a bit...

I wonder how realistic those percentages are...particularly for older boats.

Let's say in Florida a boat loses power during a storm and is going to plow sideways thru a huge area of protected sea grass.

The boat may only be worth say...$25k but the fine for plowing up a 1000' of sea grass may be several times that amount (not sure what the real fines are). By securing the boat before it can do the damage, you may have avoided the owner paying $250k in fines. $2,500 or even $12,500 seems a pretty paltry amount for saving the owner a quarter million.

Likewise an old shrimp boat with a couple thousand gallons of diesel is banging up against a reef and there is a risk of the fuel tanks busting open...I'm sure the clean up costs would be in the tens of thousands even if though the old boat may only be worth a few thousand.
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Old 09-03-2017, 05:46   #108
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Assuming your boat is a on off or custom design with no previous rig info its the rigger dutty to design a rig for you.. Happen a lot, unless its a mass production boat where you can open the spar catalog and found the exact replacement.

What i mean is when you have the bad luck to loose your rig , you rely in a reputable spar & rigging comp, if you dont trust a rigger to design a rig for you obviously you cant trust it for the basic, like replace a cotter pin..
On of the downsides of buying custom designs, I suppose.

But even then, assuming the original design was done properly and there was no evidence of problems with the design, I would expect most riggers to replace in kind.

If I somehow wound up with a boat completely missing all rigging and information on the rigging...first, I probably wouldn't bother with it...but if for some reason I had to have it...I would hire a qualified engineer/naval architect to design it not the guy who replaces rigging. If they happen to be one in the same great but my experience is they typically aren't.
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Old 09-03-2017, 05:52   #109
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
On of the downsides of buying custom designs, I suppose.

But even then, assuming the original design was done properly and there was no evidence of problems with the design, I would expect most riggers to replace in kind.

If I somehow wound up with a boat completely missing all rigging and information on the rigging...first, I probably wouldn't bother with it...but if for some reason I had to have it...I would hire a qualified engineer/naval architect to design it not the guy who replaces rigging. If they happen to be one in the same great but my experience is they typically aren't.
Mate ok, i give it up, is not ignorance but lack of info i guess, i replace from scracht a bunch of rigs for happy customers, with no previous info at all not even a poor turnbuckle left in the deck, you are confusing a rigger with a monkey who do stock rigging replacement...
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Old 09-03-2017, 05:53   #110
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Hey... Lighten up Mr. GloomyPants! If the boat is written off as a total loss by the insurance company, the owners get a new boat and someone looking to buy the boat gets a project. Everyone wins.

Nobody's looking to profit from this situation.


Not that I am at ALL on their side, but the insurance company doesn't win...
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Old 09-03-2017, 05:59   #111
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Mate ok, i give it up, is not ignorance but lack of info i guess, i replace from scracht a bunch of rigs for happy customers, with no previous info at all not even a poor turnbuckle left in the deck, you are confusing a rigger with a monkey who do stock rigging replacement...
Maybe riggers are confused. The ones I've come across fit the "monkey" category and if they are just replacing in kind, I'm OK with that as no design is needed.

Maybe I'm unaware. Is the a "rigger" license or certification people should be checking for. Never heard of one and googled and couldn't find one.
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Old 09-03-2017, 06:07   #112
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
If there isn't any facilities that can haul out this size of cat (which I'd doubted) there isn't much to do. You need large pump/s enough to beat the intake of water and then haul it. Maybe a sizeable crane can be used if he can access to the docks. We were involved in couple of salvages of cat but they were only 38 and 42 ft. This is one is massive.. 50 tons of cat with one hull submerged will be a tough job anywhere..And I cannot figure out any floatating bag to keep her afloat..
Anybody knows this marina and their utilities ?


Cheers


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Cheers


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In Aguilas there is 35T travelift, not enough for this multi, they can rent a huge crane and lift it up , my best bet could be refloat the boat and tow it to Almerimar where there is a huge travelift and better resources...
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Old 09-03-2017, 06:14   #113
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Re: Multihull in distress.

The Spanish SAR is trying to found the wáter ingress point and they are planning to refloat ...

https://www.facebook.com/infoaguilas...1234691395812/
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Old 09-03-2017, 06:51   #114
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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You've called someone's comment as being ignorant because they haven't provided citations when you yourself haven't. Call them out for being 'whacking the jedi' when you're saying they're being ignorant?! That's disingenuous at best and an arrogant wind up at worst. You've made all sorts of unsubstantiated claims but still no proof. Then you throw out a dismissive comment so you won't be challenged. Quite frankly your credibility is pretty low. Let's see your citations.
You think this is the first time I'm being challenged for citations? You actually think that I will take the effort to look them up, post them here and believe that y'all will write something like "okay, you got the references so you're right and we were wrong"? You must also be joking! Oh arrogant I am; get in line, you're number 1,276 posting that about me on this forum :-) You know that it's kind of an honor to be called arrogant here because most of the naval architects that were member have been called that as well and all left. Because the members here knew better. If there would still be one here and agree with me telling you that the catamaran rigging wire size is based on models tuned until dismastings stopped instead of calculations, do you think y'all would then agree and admit to be wrong? Of-course you wouldn't, you would try to disqualify him/her or would come up with another argument.

Like I said, life's too short for that cr@p; if you call that lazy then that's fine with me. Has it occurred to you that something can be correct without citation given? A rigger came up with the same and now riggers are monkeys that know nothing is what we hear. Whenever we come up with the goal you move the posts. There's no end to that. So how about the flury of Gunboat dismastings? Why is that ignored when I come up with it? It's staring you in the face: evidence. You really think they made an error in their math? You think they re-did the calculations, found the error and corrected that? Or may be I'm right and they just upped the safety margins in their computer model....

Just Google "catamaran dismasting" and citations fill your screen
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Old 09-03-2017, 06:58   #115
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
The Spanish SAR is trying to found the wáter ingress point and they are planning to refloat ...

https://www.facebook.com/infoaguilas...1234691395812/
Why is SAR working on the boat? That's weird.
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Old 09-03-2017, 07:10   #116
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pirate Re: Multihull in distress.

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Why is SAR working on the boat? That's weird.
Its Europe.. not the States..
Most likely they will be billing the owner for the work.. if not paid the boat will be seized and in 6 mths auctioned off to be bought by someone official after a luxury boat at a knockdown price..
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Old 09-03-2017, 07:47   #117
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
In Aguilas there is 35T travelift, not enough for this multi, they can rent a huge crane and lift it up , my best bet could be refloat the boat and tow it to Almerimar where there is a huge travelift and better resources...



Hey, it's a cat, I thought you could just beach it and do the work there? Travelifts are for monos!
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Old 09-03-2017, 07:53   #118
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Re: Multihull in distress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Wandering off topic a bit...

I wonder how realistic those percentages are...particularly for older boats.

Let's say in Florida a boat loses power during a storm and is going to plow sideways thru a huge area of protected sea grass.

The boat may only be worth say...$25k but the fine for plowing up a 1000' of sea grass may be several times that amount (not sure what the real fines are). By securing the boat before it can do the damage, you may have avoided the owner paying $250k in fines. $2,500 or even $12,500 seems a pretty paltry amount for saving the owner a quarter million.

Likewise an old shrimp boat with a couple thousand gallons of diesel is banging up against a reef and there is a risk of the fuel tanks busting open...I'm sure the clean up costs would be in the tens of thousands even if though the old boat may only be worth a few thousand.

Salvage action preventing environmental damage is completely separate -- the salvor is entitled to "special compensation" equal to his expenses (even if the action is unsuccessful, unlike normal salvage) plus up to 30% or more in case the action is successful.
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Old 09-03-2017, 14:54   #119
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Re: Multihull in distress.

Interesting thread. A big part of engineering is studying failures to prevent future ones. I designed nuclear power plants, which involved a lot of analysis to prevent failures, for good reasons. My boat partner designs food machinery--when something breaks, you just make the replacement stronger. We are both engineers. In the case of catamaran masts, there aren't nearly as many historical failures to study as monohull masts, so they are still learning about the dynamic loads. It is the dynamic loads which bring the masts down.

More interesting is the question--would that cat sink without the floatation bags?? It appears that almost the entire starboard hull is submerged, even with the bags.

Salvage seems pretty simple--find and patch the hole in the hull and dewater. Should take less than a day, if the insurance company is cooperating.
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Old 09-03-2017, 16:06   #120
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Re: Multihull in distress.

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I have one in the coachroof of the workshop, really cool mast , not like the crap you see this days.. 50 knts in the Med are a killer for any spar...
Yo... I'm a little cornfused. We've experienced 40-50 knots continuous for ten hours and 50-60 knot gusts which have rounded us up on occasion here in the Med.

I don't recall having our mast come down on us.

I've actually heard the suggestion directly from the Leopard cat sales people that the rigs are designed to let go prior to capsize, so I'm thinking the cat here in the Med had that happen. Huge load on the rig, maybe a skipper surprised by the load or underestimating the load, then bam! Down it comes prior to capsize like it should.
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