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Old 05-06-2016, 09:46   #241
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
I'd like to raise the issue of the gorgeous CL fore/aft double bed... usually after in the plan. Totally comfy at anchor when not underway on passage in heeled 15°. Do these berths not get used for sleeping and the sleeping done in a lee bun or settee?

My experience has been to sleep in the main saloon lee side on the settee... not the aft cabin.

I notice that many modern designs seem to have plush built in chair / seating arrangements and no settee on both sides.

Any comments from those with CL double beds?
I sleep mostly in the aft cabin at sea. I have a centerline double with split mattress. Lee cloth between the mattress halves. Lee cloth not needed at 10 degrees of heel or less.

The aft cabin has far less pitching motion than anywhere else in the boat and so this is really comfortable except in the roughest weather. I also like being there off watch because if the crew on deck needs me, all they have to do is reach out from behind the helm and knock on the hatch to my cabin to summon me.

I have nice tight sea berths in my pullman cabin just ahead of the mast, and I sometimes sleep there at sea, but if the boat is pitching in a rough seaway it's not too good.

For really bad conditions I do sleep in the salon, but there's a lot of competition for that space on a long passage if we are well crewed. That's because the forepeak berth is uninhabitable in an even slightly rough seaway, so any crew based there will have already migrated to the salon before the thought has occurred to me.
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:05   #242
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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I sleep mostly in the aft cabin at sea. I have a centerline double with split mattress. Lee cloth between the mattress halves. Lee cloth not needed at 10 degrees of heel or less.

The aft cabin has far less pitching motion than anywhere else in the boat and so this is really comfortable except in the roughest weather. I also like being there off watch because if the crew on deck needs me, all they have to do is reach out from behind the helm and knock on the hatch to my cabin to summon me.

I have nice tight sea berths in my pullman cabin just ahead of the mast, and I sometimes sleep there at sea, but if the boat is pitching in a rough seaway it's not too good.

For really bad conditions I do sleep in the salon, but there's a lot of competition for that space on a long passage if we are well crewed. That's because the forepeak berth is uninhabitable in an even slightly rough seaway, so any crew based there will have already migrated to the salon before the thought has occurred to me.
Good points and of course doesn't apply for short handed sailing. I had thought the center of mass of the boat had the least motion...and that would be saloon berths. My "aft" buck which one can sleep either fore and aft or athwarthship has lee boards.. but I do not used it on port tacks. Alerting the off watch in mid ship berths is no different and maybe better than if someone is sleeping under the cockpit.

Big boats may need bigger crews for passages. A crew of 4 seems to work as far as bunking... with 2 on and 2 off watch. More than that on a small boat seems crowded... more food and water and so on...
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Old 05-06-2016, 11:19   #243
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
Good points and of course doesn't apply for short handed sailing. I had thought the center of mass of the boat had the least motion...and that would be saloon berths. My "aft" buck which one can sleep either fore and aft or athwarthship has lee boards.. but I do not used it on port tacks. Alerting the off watch in mid ship berths is no different and maybe better than if someone is sleeping under the cockpit.

Big boats may need bigger crews for passages. A crew of 4 seems to work as far as bunking... with 2 on and 2 off watch. More than that on a small boat seems crowded... more food and water and so on...
Yes, I would have also thought that the least motion should be just aft of the mast and low down -- but the axis of pitching motion seems to be further aft. Maybe someone understands this and can explain.

Sounds like your boat has an aft cockpit, with an aft cockpit below it?

I don't know the Contest 36, but have been on other Contests, and consider these some of the most beautiful and most beautifully made cruising boats on the planet.

Concerning crewing --

On a long passage (more than a couple of days and nights), I find that four good sailors is where the watch rotation and so forth becomes really sustainable without chronic sleeplessness etc, and five is even better. I like to double the watches in rougher weather, especially at night, and with less than that number of people you just run out of manpower.

That becomes a gang which requires crew management, which is a stress for some people, but it's one of the things I enjoy, so I don't mind it.

I really like offshore passage making when you get into a pleasant rhythm and don't care when you arrive. Rather than counting the hours and miles before port because you can't get enough sleep, are tired, etc. That's magic which allows you to get around the globe under sail without stress. It is easier to arrange this "magic" on a larger boat, in my experience, which is one of the reasons why I prefer them -- getting back to the original subject of this thread.
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Old 05-06-2016, 14:35   #244
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Matthias,

A refreshing return to a couple of your original questions before the thread became somewhat hyjacked by the well-meaning go now, go as small as me crowd.

A couple of people have already eluded to a couple of primary "add-ons" and conveniences that make the cruising life really quite nice. Look for a boat that either already has these or the items can easily be installed with space allowing:

1. Watermaker. A HUGE and not that expensive an item. Get one that makes at least 17 gallons per hour.

2. Seriously look into Lithium batteries instead of yesterdays solar technology as it relates to boats. I came extremely close to adding solar just a week ago, and was so glad I was delayed. With a proper lithium battery set up, the need for solar becomes totally obsolete. Forget the "save the planet" feel good about yourself nonesense, the lithium set up will actually use less energy. Even if you intend to spend copious time in anchorages, with the proper alternator or better yet a generator, you may only need to run either for a short time each day since the batteries charge so quickly.

3. Washing machine. Of course you'll need the watermaker first unless you spend a moderate amount of time in marinas. After only six months, you'll be dollars ahead over those not having one. And life will be so much more pleasant with clean clothes in only 40 minutes without wasting time wondering through a strange town carrying your laundry, asking the locals... "Hola'. Donde esta la laudrymat?"

4. Macerating heads. Manual heads can easily be converted. No hand pumping, no clogs, no waste management.... Need I say more?

5. A hot water system which allows you and anyone aboard to take a daily shower. Heaven on earth, and also important if you decide you like scuba or snorkeling. The ability to wash down wetsuits.

6. A quality dinghy with enough horsepower to tow or push the mothership if and when it becomes necessary. Also.... It's your major means of transportation to get to and from the boat in all types of weather and waves. It's not always calm in anchorages.

Don't skimp, do things right and you'll have a great time.
Having been a permanent live aboard cruiser since 2001 I have to say I agree with all of the above, however I tend to the opinion that you are going to need a vessel at least 40' and probably 45' long to accommodate this amount of gear.

For a watermaker of that capacity I would tend to go engine driven particularly if one was to go the alternator charged lithium battery route.

I also tend to agree with the proposition re lithium batteries however for my own part I am holding off on making a complete change over until the technology beds down a little more.

I spend a fair bit of time in places without Laundromats and it is a pain to have to store dirty laundry and then find a Laundromat, cart it there and back etc. If your cruising is to be a progression of marinas being without laundry facilities won't be a problem but if you want to frequent lots of remote anchorages a small washing machine is a good gadget to have.

Macerating heads definitely the way to go but carry a spare macerator. I would also like to have a small treatment plant but don't have room on my boat to fit one.

You are really just camping out if you don't have a shower and whilst it's fun for a weekend it's not full time.

The dingy thing is more a quality than quantity thing. For my part I am not a big fan of rubber duckies, they are just too fragile (around here amongst the permanent cruisers they are called crocodile teething rings) go industrial with a good quality outboard, lots of built in buoyancy and a good sized, lockable, fixed, locker.

If you are going to frequent wilderness places decent sized fuel tanks are a must have, I tend to the opinion that at a minimum one needs about 1,000nm of motoring capacity without fuel stored on deck.

I have found that the most reliable means of regularly getting weather forecasts at a reasonable cost is via HF radio. I have a transceiver and hardly ever use the transmitter but the receiver gets used a couple of times a day when I am on passages.
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Old 05-06-2016, 14:50   #245
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

Nothing like talk of must-haves of washing machines, hot showers, lithium batteries and macerating heads to make an earth-saving guy like me feel inadequate and inferior!
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Old 05-06-2016, 16:08   #246
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Nothing like talk of must-haves of washing machines, hot showers, lithium batteries and macerating heads to make an earth-saving guy like me feel inadequate and inferior!
Why? Nothing about having these things on a boat are less "earth-saving". If you never wash your clothes or taker a hot shower there are different words for you other than inferior.
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Old 05-06-2016, 16:26   #247
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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A watermaker is no replacement for fresh water because it doesn't contain the minerals that your body needs, a watermaker is great for shower water and occasional cooking etc. I see sailors collect rainwater but you shouldn't drink that either because it's not just dead water, but dirty surface water. Best water for us to drink is water that's alive, that is to say, spring water directly from source. But that is hard to come by.

If you're gonna liveaboard you need a comfortably sized boat that two people with ease can handle and for safety reasons one can handle if something goes wrong. In my experience that means 40-55ft, prefearbly a ketch rig.
Sort of correct Van, but not entirely. Whilst, medically, the point you make is valid regarding mineral losses, it should be irrelevant by anyone maintaining a decent diet. We have used a water maker daily since 1997 but we do eat a pretty careful diet. Many people on land put their health at far greater risk with their food choices. However, that is elective. There are plenty of springs in the world, but these can be hard to access or to seperate from the surrounds when they are sub-sea! As has been pointed out, the operators physical size is also a factor. Years ago the preferred choice was around 35ft. I would hazard this is now closer to 45ft. Does it matter? If a person can afford the bigger boat and physically manage it then it can be included on their list.
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Old 05-06-2016, 16:49   #248
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Why? Nothing about having these things on a boat are less "earth-saving". If you never wash your clothes or taker a hot shower there are different words for you other than inferior.
Splendiferously aromatic? Magnificently odorous? Well any way I do wash clothes and take a shower of sorts when needed, though admittedly it can be brisk! Good for the circulation! But those of cruising in warmer climes, just how many clothes are you wearing?
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Old 05-06-2016, 17:05   #249
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Keep in mind that the Salty crew are in their early 20's and doing the go now thing.

After a little, ahem, maturing, desires and needs often change.

When I decided to live aboard I sold my 30' and bought a 42' which for me made perfect sense. Many of my friends thought the 30' would be fine. Different strokes...

On the 42' I had a rectangular bed in a private cabin and a separate stall shower with 80 gallons of water which meant showering on board whenever I chose without having to wipe down the entire head after. Unnecessary decadence? Not for me.

The boat was a ketch rig and easy to sail even without any roller furling.

If I anchored a lot I would have added an electric windlass with cockpit control but other than that....?

I simply don't understand the argument that anything more than bare minimum for person A is unnecessary luxury for everyone else.

I have to admire their fortitude - making up and dismantling a bed every day would soon become tedious. Having to limit water so super cautiously as well ...... plus the anchoring arrangement; hmmmmm. I guess that I appreciate my comforts too much. I wonder how long they shall stick with this.
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Old 05-06-2016, 18:03   #250
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

Oh the irony of sailing to the far corners of the earth where life is so simple and arriving on a 65' yacht with every creature comfort and gadget imaginable.
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Old 05-06-2016, 18:07   #251
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Oh the irony of sailing to the far corners of the earth where life is so simple and arriving on a 65' yacht with every creature comfort and gadget imaginable.
Yes that does sound GREAT!
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Old 06-06-2016, 01:02   #252
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Yes that does sound GREAT!
Especially if your gadgets include fleetbroadband so you can post your experiences about it here on CF whilst you are still there


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Old 06-06-2016, 13:21   #253
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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4. Macerating heads. Manual heads can easily be converted. No hand pumping, no clogs, no waste management.... Need I say more?
Oh, my favorite topic - shitter comfort. Two questions:

I thought that there are manual and electric heads, and then after the holding tank there's a separate macerator to grind down and unload stuff when offshore. Help me understand - there's a head with a grinder built-in that's supposed to be better? Why and how?

Continuing on the subject of thrones... I personally find the tiny round heads... ummmm... how shall I say... not anatomically suitable for my male biology. Am I crazy or are there other people who desire a bit more... ahem, head room, so to speak? Is this a common cruiser upgrade?

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Old 06-06-2016, 14:43   #254
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Oh, my favorite topic - shitter comfort. Two questions:

I thought that there are manual and electric heads, and then after the holding tank there's a separate macerator to grind down and unload stuff when offshore. Help me understand - there's a head with a grinder built-in that's supposed to be better? Why and how?

Continuing on the subject of thrones... I personally find the tiny round heads... ummmm... how shall I say... not anatomically suitable for my male biology. Am I crazy or are there other people who desire a bit more... ahem, head room, so to speak? Is this a common cruiser upgrade?

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Yes, as soon as you depart from the most basic heads, nearly all (how can I say this delicately so as not to offend all the overly sensitive people) the more expensive boats have throwns with the grinder built right in. So your deposit is completely macerated as it leaves the bowl. We simply push a button. Larger toilets are also available. The result... No clogged pipes, no solids in the holding tank to get stuck to the bottom, no turds or TP floating around behind the boat. We like it, the fish like it, the plankton like it.... every creature is happy.

Except I'm sure some land-based CF folks will find fault with this system, but personally... no clogs, in over four years and yes TP goes down the toilet and not into some disgusting stinky storage bag. We're not into waste management on our boat.
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Old 06-06-2016, 16:12   #255
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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So your deposit is completely macerated as it leaves the bowl. We simply push a button. The result... No clogged pipes, no solids in the holding tank to get stuck to the bottom, no turds or TP floating around behind the boat. We like it, the fish like it, the plankton like it.... every creature is happy.


Environmentally it would be best to shoot the ground up fresh produce straight into the sea for almost instant treatment and fresh fish food but PC people like it left in the holding tank until putrified before releasing.
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