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Old 02-06-2016, 07:50   #151
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Can you define the border between "need" and "luxury"? I can't -- not for a house, and not for a boat.

I have a friend with a 60 meter motor yacht. To him, my 54-footer is way less than what he thinks of as bare minimum needs (to his credit, though, he doesn't complain when he's on board my boat).

To some people, 60 meters is cramped and not cool.

Looking at it from the other end -- some people with Flickas think that a 32' cruiser is decadence and total overkill.

There's no end to this -- it is really totally subjective. To each his own -- according to his taste and budget. In general -- "too big" is usually a few feet bigger than whatever you have yourself, and "too small" is a few feet less.

Eeeek!
Come on fella... be realistic... anyone who finds a 60 meter boat "cramped" is a jerk... a very rich one I might add.

So let's get real... what does it cost (approximately) to design, built, rig, fit out... and "fill" with "possessions) a 55'-60' cruising boat?

And what % of people who want to go off cruising have that sort of coin and the ability to "go for it"?
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Old 02-06-2016, 07:51   #152
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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This thread is all about these "complex systems" and "electrical things that will break" and "sails too big to use without hydraulics" and "how will i be able to vacuum my 60 ft. boat"

Sail out into an ocean until you hit bad weather, and let me know if you would rather be on a 29 ft. sloop or a 55 ft. cutter rigged center cockpit.

Why the extremes?
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Old 02-06-2016, 07:56   #153
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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So let's get real... what does it cost (approximately) to design, built, rig, fit out... and "fill" with "possessions) a 55'-60' cruising boat?

And what % of people who want to go off cruising have that sort of coin and the ability to "go for it"?
From scratch? Designing and building a custom boat? It's pretty easy to guestimate what it would cost to buy a 55-60' cruising sailboat, just not sure what your questions are. Are you writing a thesis on cruising or something?
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Old 02-06-2016, 07:57   #154
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

only a person with very limited phantasy & experience will deny, that on principle the 50+ footer is way ahead of a 38'er in practically everything AS LONG AS ONE CAN EASILY AFFORD IT!!!
as Lew Hackler wrote: "it is better that the boat is too small than too big." too small & you will be moderately unhappy at times on your cruise - too big: no cruise at all because you can't afford the big boat!
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Old 02-06-2016, 07:59   #155
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

and that's how the phrase "sail it like you stole it" came about
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Old 02-06-2016, 08:01   #156
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Come on fella... be realistic... anyone who finds a 60 meter boat "cramped" is a jerk... a very rich one I might add.
Why a jerk? I find this comment really puzzling. I actually know such people, and the ones I know are not actually jerks. They just have a very different idea about their "needs", which follows of course from their budgets. If you're a billionaire it looks really very different, than it looks to us.



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So let's get real... what does it cost (approximately) to design, built, rig, fit out... and "fill" with "possessions) a 55'-60' cruising boat?

And what % of people who want to go off cruising have that sort of coin and the ability to "go for it"?
Why does the % matter? Those of us who can afford ANY kind of cruising boat, even a 19' Flicka, are already part of less than 1% of humanity. Why is the 1% somehow "real", whereas the 0.1% are somehow "not real", or worse than that, "jerks"? It's all relative, really.

How much does a 55' to 60' cruising boat cost? From maybe $500k if you buy a good used one in need of some work, to infinity, but $2.5 million is a decent budget if you want something really nice.

Now is someone who has or hopes to have $2.5 million to spend on a boat a "jerk"? I'm waiting for that next. Again, it's all relative. For someone that's an unimaginable fortune, for others, not. That money won't buy you even a studio apartment in central London. Maybe someone is selling even a pretty modest house in New York or San Francisco, and wants to spend the money on a boat and go cruising. Is he a "jerk"? It's all relative!!
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Old 02-06-2016, 08:31   #157
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Why a jerk? I find this comment really puzzling. I actually know such people, and the ones I know are not actually jerks. They just have a very different idea about their "needs", which follows of course from their budgets. If you're a billionaire it looks really very different, than it looks to us.





Why does the % matter? Those of us who can afford ANY kind of cruising boat, even a 19' Flicka, are already part of less than 1% of humanity. Why is the 1% somehow "real", whereas the 0.1% are somehow "not real", or worse than that, "jerks"? It's all relative, really.

How much does a 55' to 60' cruising boat cost? From maybe $500k if you buy a good used one in need of some work, to infinity, but $2.5 million is a decent budget if you want something really nice.

Now is someone who has or hopes to have $2.5 million to spend on a boat a "jerk"? I'm waiting for that next. Again, it's all relative. For someone that's an unimaginable fortune, for others, not. That money won't buy you even a studio apartment in central London. Maybe someone is selling even a pretty modest house in New York or San Francisco, and wants to spend the money on a boat and go cruising. Is he a "jerk"? It's all relative!!

I use the term "jerk" to emphasize the absurd excesses of the "consumer" / acquisition of property mentality... Of course for the wealthy with lots of money to spend... regardless of how it was earned... they will tend to spend on "big" because they can. I don't want to make this a discussion about what to me is conspicuous and vulgar consumption.

Few people have the $2.5MM to spend on a yacht and the income to maintain it. Some do.. fine! The thread was about the optimal size to short handed cruising. Optimal is different for each person so the question taken in that light has no answer.

However, the spirit of the question seeks to explore what works for most, what is attainable for most and so on.

I posed the question why a couple or single hander needs 2 heads... and the answer was a spare in case one breaks. hahahahahaha. Another replay was about the multiple berths for guests. Sure this happens... So how often do single or a couple who go off sailing around the world have guests? Do they get a boat for the few occasions guests are aboard?

Do not presume that every sailor wants biggest... perhaps a bit bigger. Where Shiva is moored there are no 60's (sail) and it's in one of the wealthiest areas of the country. Why do you suppose that might be? There are a few mid 50s... a bunch of high 40s lots of 40- mid 40s and oodles of mid 30s to 40. This includes "visiting" yachts.

Please offer your explanation for this? Maybe we don't have enough millionaires?

Average Household Net Worth $1,103,113

Look up the stats for Centerport, Oyster Bay and Huntington... all with multimillion dollar homes along the shore... including several Guilded Age estates...
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Old 02-06-2016, 08:59   #158
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

Sandero, what exact information are you after? Your questions just seem so open and broad that I can't quite figure out how they relate back to the original purpose of this thread.
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Old 02-06-2016, 09:01   #159
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

Have we gotten to the "I hate rich people" portion of the thread yet?
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Old 02-06-2016, 09:13   #160
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

I don't hate rich people at all! They are my clients!

This thread was about short handed couple or single hander acquiring the ideal boat for cruising.

You need to kind of figure out who the average single hander or couple is like.... including the resources, skills and financial they bring to the project. And I would say age is a factor... in the mix.

If you want to take the finances out of the equation... size as a function of cost is not an issue. That seems to be the position of some responses... ie money is not a hurdle or a barrier. Fine.

I thought the OP was interesting because it seemed to be asking what is perhaps minimal.... more than minimal... optimal and beyond. I didn't sense that the OP was curious about the ends of the spectrum (although a few don't consider the ends as limits... especially the higher end).

So what are the tangible differences between 38.... 42..... 46.... 50.... and 54 as bench marks for the short handed going off around the world? Of course hull form, sail plan and so on can make a huge difference.

OK???
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Old 02-06-2016, 09:13   #161
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Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

Actually some contributions to this thread have usefully pointed out that it is not so much about size so much as complexity and cruising style.

I have had several yachts 26' and up. The 60' ketch I am renovating has very basic systems and is not expensive to maintain, has good storage and living space for two couples and is not difficult to work on deck or below for single or short handed. Docking needs thought but knowing how she handles makes stuff manageable.

I would prefer to single hand this boat rather than the last 38' racer I had - all deck work is much more secure.

I can fix or organise repairs to most systems on board and can certainly live away from the dock for months so I expect it to be an economical boat.

Inevitably some things like the rig and sails are more expensive but being able to stay out of marinas surely compensates for this many times over.

So IMHO it is more about lifestyle and complexity than LOA. I am sure there are smaller yachts vastly more expensive than this one but this works well for me.


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Old 02-06-2016, 09:15   #162
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

My boat iss xx ft, and I'm perfect, so xx is perfect...

In reality, regardless of cost, 28 is too small(1) and 62 is too large(2), so 45 is about right.

I did spend a season in the Solomons pulling the anchor up on my 45 footer by hand. It was a PITA, but I chose to do it rather than wait around for parts to fix the windlass. If I was on a larger boat, I would have had to wait for parts.

1. A very experienced professional sailor who could sail circles around 99.9% of the people on this forum abandoned his 28 footer in a prolonged gale because he seriously feared for his life.

2. Another sailor on a 62 footer fell and broke his ribs trying to put the sail cover on in a rolly anchorage. The boom was too high to reach easily.
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Old 02-06-2016, 09:27   #163
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Where can I find info on the sailboat with the 18 on the side of the hull ??? Thanks
It is a Bestevaer 53 built by KM Yachtbuilders in the Netherlands. Glad you like it. I am having a slightly smaller version (49 feet) built .

The 53 foot boat pictured is the yacht designer Gerard Dykstra's own yacht. He designed it for himself as his ideal cruising yacht. Of relevance to the thread, it is a very simple boat: no generator, no watermaker, no fridge or freezer. A single manual head. It does not even have pressurised hot and cold fresh water. The steering is a simple tiller. There is almost no external timber and the hull sides are unpainted aluminium.

There would not be many even much smaller cruising boats with less to go wrong or requiring less maintenance. The solid aluminium construction and watertight bulkheads (there are four seperate watertight areas) also minimises the risk of serious problems with accidents like grounding, or collision with floating debris. However, it is important to realise that with a larger yacht like this items like replacing rigging or sails will be more expensive than on a smaller yacht.
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Old 02-06-2016, 09:28   #164
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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I did spend a season in the Solomons pulling the anchor up on my 45 footer by hand. It was a PITA, but I chose to do it rather than wait around for parts to fix the windlass. If I was on a larger boat, I would have had to wait for parts.

I have been I that situation with a 180lb anchor on 13mm chain and a dead windlass. PITA of course and maybe kept sailing rather than anchor so frequently but could manage with primary winches or with improvised lever and a couple of chain hooks.

As the rest of your post elucidates - **** happens and one does what one has to do. And sometimes we don't!😫😫😃



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Old 02-06-2016, 09:47   #165
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

This whole needs vs wants question can only be answered by the individual. This is why I suggest that one should look for the smallest boat that you can live with. And by this I mean having a boat that will do what you want it to do, and that you can afford (both in financial and physical terms).

For some, this might be a 55-footer. For others, a 26 does fine. There's no right or wrong answer here. It's up to the individual (or the couple/family/crew).

Now, it is true that average cruising boat sizes have continually crept up over the decades. In the 70s/80s most people cruised in low to mid 30s. Today the average cruiser seems to be in the mid/upper-40s. Human needs haven't changed, but our wants sure have. This shift to more and bigger is driven by our economics and our culture, not by any absolute need. But this is true of just about everything in our rich Western life.

Of course, the only ones who can legitimately claim to need a sailboat are those that call it home. For the rest, it's all about wants anyway. So choose the boat that works for you. I don't really care. As long as you're a decent person, we'll get along fine. In all likelyhood your boat will be bigger than mine, so we can have afternoon drinkies in your cockpit
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