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Old 02-06-2016, 03:14   #136
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

it's just that the manual windlass on the 38footer is a little bit less likely to break down than an electric one on a bigger boat, & on the smaller one is not quite as dependent on it as on the bigger (45lbs anchors & 5/16" chain can be hauled hand over hand (not that that is going to be fun...), groundtackle on 53' boats???
"more complexity" is not necessarily worse than KISS, it will just require even more strict maintenance than the latter.
btw: the frequency of breakdowns varies enormously with the type of cruising one does...
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Old 02-06-2016, 04:08   #137
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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spend their "time-in-paradise" with repairs, chasing spares and/or technicians to fix things, missing out on many superb anchorages because some breakdown or other forced them to sail straight for the next "big place" to get the spares/whatever
I see this a lot as well. Nothing is sadder than a crew stuck in port awaiting a spare part while the the deserted islands with the beautiful clear water lie just over the horizon.

However, I don't see this as issue between big and small, rather a difference between complex and simple. Many big boats choose the complex option, but there is no reason why a big boat cannot also be simple. If you want a wind vane on a 53 footer instead of an autopilot it is no problem.




A big boat has plenty of room to store spares or install redundant backup systems. This is worth considering for vital systems (for example two autopilots are common on large cruising boats). There are also areas where a large boat can be less complex than the smaller alternative (see my post #122).

The dependency on an electric anchor winch is an exception where the larger boat is more dependent on functioning technology, but If you have decent sized ground tackle failure of the anchor winch is still a pain on a 38 foot boat. A typical sailing couple are likely to need to use sail winches to lift the anchor if the winch fails even a 38 foot yacht.


For all boats, big and small complex and simple it is worth thinking about what breakdowns are likely to see you stuck in port. Back up systems, spare parts and installing oversized gear are strategies that are worth considering for vital systems.
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Old 02-06-2016, 04:17   #138
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

I still want the questions related to what does one need the space / volume of a 50'+ boat for... as a single hander or couple cruising in the tropics?

The cost of stuff on boats varies similar to the square/cube law... Sure a screw costs the same... you just need more of them!

The notion that you can "shop around" on any boat is pure nonsense. You can for some things and some services... for other things and services you can't Who would sail 200 miles to save $100 for a part or service and how does one know that the savings is to be found there?

The thread was about the optimal size for short handed cruising. Aside from more waterline being a faster passage maker... and having more room for more (unnecessary) stuff... and "creature comforts) what is the advantage and what are the disadvantages??

Deeper draft is a disadvantage.

And

And the more expense for:

replacements / repairs / services / mooring-docking / fuel / cosmetic-maintenance work.

Even water tank capacity can be a non reason with a water maker.... which makes more than a person can possibly need in a day... Why store if you can make?

The so called sweet spot is not the largest.... why stop at 55' and why not 80'? Because the simple answer is that the downsides begin to increase with size . That doesn't mean the benefits increase with less size... making a 28' optimal. The sweet spot is somewhere in the middle of the sizes mentioned... and will vary depending on the individual boat, sailor, budget, skills, and sailing region(s). Less is not always more and bigger is not always better.
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Old 02-06-2016, 04:43   #139
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

Yep, These "Wicked Salty" folks look like they're living in nirvana here on their minimalist lifestyle smaller boat. I think it was their next video where the woman contracted an infection and needed treatment. No doubt due to the high sanitation standards aboard the boat where according to the two, they rarely take showers. I also noticed him hauling up the anchor every day by hand.... That to looks like absolute heaven on earth, because there's no way he's going to need to fix something that doesn't exist. Awesome.

Our windlass worked just fine for ten years, until it required repair two years ago. And it's worked just fine every day since.

I just happened to see this video after checking out and wanted to share it with you.

Ciao.

Ken

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Old 02-06-2016, 04:54   #140
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

One does not need the space of a 50 footer, but the space is nice. Bigger is more comfortable at sea and at anchor. Boats get small real fast when cruising, my crew is stepping over me constantly at the moment as she is doing the washing nesting thing. With a bigger boat I wouldn't be out of cheese right now or wine because we used the last of it up last week. I wouldn't be hauling my ass up a crappy concrete pier tomorrow with 7 gerry cans to get fuel because my tank would be 400 liters and not 140l, I wouldn't of been smashed around as much the other night in strong winds on an Amel 53 as I was on my Freedom 32 etc etc........there are definitely advantages to owning a larger boat, regardless of small boat owners defending their postions, but there are advantages to owning smaller boats ,regardless of larger boat owners justifying their purchase, costs from original purchase, to maintaince, to dockage etc.

At the end of the day its actually not that important, I'm here doing it now while alot are still saving, looking or dreaming about the perfect boat, my friends that are on bigger boats aren't enjoying cruising anymore than I am, they may be a little more comfortable at times, but I get to help them drink the extra wine they carry. If Ken wants to swap his oyster for my Freedom , sure I'll take it, but the reality is there are diminshing returns regarding boat size and happiness, therefore my life probably wont improve that much.
But I'm happy to give it ago. Make the most of the boat you have.

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Old 02-06-2016, 04:58   #141
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
I still want the questions related to what does one need the space / volume of a 50'+ boat for... as a single hander or couple cruising in the tropics?
1. Waterline length

2. Seaworthiness

3. Stability and motion comfort

4. Space and load carrying capacity for parts, tools, supplies without loading down the ends of the boat


Just to name a few. Which is not to say, however, that boats of less than 50' necessarily have any fatal lack of those things, but some sailors may want more.


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Less is not always more and bigger is not always better.
I think everyone would agree with that. To each his own, and everyone will make up his own mind.

Speaking for myself --

I bought a 54' boat when I wanted a 48' one, thinking it would be too big. Within a month I realized how much better the 54' was than the 48' I wanted, for my purposes.

Seven years later, I am planning to build a new boat which will be about 62' -- 65'. Just to show that for many people, 50-odd feet is by no means, too much.

I don't need more accommodation space than I have now and could live with a bit less. But I need a ton more technical space, and a proper engine room, and I want the ends of the boat to be empty and light. All that requires more length but not more beam.

But that's just my personal preference, cruising style and area, etc. YMMV.

As to the upper limit -- beyond 20 meters LOA (66') you are subject to different and much stricter rules, at least sailing under a British flag. Above that size it also starts to get difficult to get into many leisure marinas. Other than cost, those are probably the only reasons why I wouldn't go still bigger. Although I might if I had the budget for some pro crew.
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Old 02-06-2016, 05:49   #142
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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1. Waterline length

2. Seaworthiness

3. Stability and motion comfort

4. Space and load carrying capacity for parts, tools, supplies without loading down the ends of the boat


Just to name a few. Which is not to say, however, that boats of less than 50' necessarily have any fatal lack of those things, but some sailors may want more.
.......
++++++

With all due respect... your answer hardly has to do with what one needs the increased volume for... This is not the advantages of speed and sea kindly motion of a larger heavier boat.... it's about the specific needs for interior volume.

Engine rooms are required and we would want space to work and so forth... quiet might be a big concern as well.

Again, the lighter ends make for better and perhaps safer sailing.... but that is not the trust of the query... what does one need the huge increase in volume between say a 40' and a 55'?

Let's stick to this please.
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Old 02-06-2016, 06:01   #143
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

I don't know other's experience... how about this:

How much time do you spend... cleaning and vacuuming the interior? What about the deck?

It's pretty rare for something on a sailing (complex) yacht to not need attention... in a marine environment... What about keeping bolts and so forth corrosion free? removing corrosion and rust? Dealing with aging wire connections? And things reaching the end of their normal service life?

More means you are more a "slave" to all of the above. It's part of the appeal and the down side. We want to sail not to be maintaining.... less to maintain.... more time to sail. This seems self evident.

The thought of having so much more to "manage" and clean and fix and so forth at some point becomes a burden and outweighs or takes a bite into the "comfort" and speed advantages.

How much sooner does a 55' footer arrive on a 1000 mile passage than 40'? And aside from the risk factor or being offshore... what's the hurry for a couple sailing around the world? I can think of one... weather.
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Old 02-06-2016, 06:03   #144
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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++++++

With all due respect... your answer hardly has to do with what one needs the increased volume for... This is not the advantages of speed and sea kindly motion of a larger heavier boat.... it's about the specific needs for interior volume.

Engine rooms are required and we would want space to work and so forth... quiet might be a big concern as well.

Again, the lighter ends make for better and perhaps safer sailing.... but that is not the trust of the query... what does one need the huge increase in volume between say a 40' and a 55'?

Let's stick to this please.
My point was that volume is not the only reason you might want a longer boat.


Why people want more volume below is a much more banal question -- pretty much like asking why people need a 2000 square foot house when 1000 square feet is enough (or why they need 5000 square feet or 10 000 square feet or whatever -- there's no end of that).

Naturally, more accommodation volume is more comfortable and easier to live in. Especially if you are on board full time, rather than just hopping on for weekends and annual vacations.

How much do you "really need"? There's no answer to that -- how long is a piece of string. Some people are happy on a 19' boat like a Flicka. Some people find 65' too small, even for a couple. And everything in between.

I'll say one thing, however -- it does happen rarely, but exceedingly rarely, that someone says his boat is "too big". Living on a boat, as a general rule -- there's never enough space, no matter how big the boat is. Even single handing my own 54' boat -- it is not big enough in some respects -- there are plenty of beds, but the engine room is far too small, there is not nearly enough technical space, no proper sail storage . . . I could go on, but you get the point.
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Old 02-06-2016, 06:04   #145
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Let's stick to this please.
Why? It is apparent that for you no answer is going to be acceptable.
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Old 02-06-2016, 06:11   #146
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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I don't know other's experience... how about this:

How much time do you spend... cleaning and vacuuming the interior? What about the deck?

It's pretty rare for something on a sailing (complex) yacht to not need attention... in a marine environment... What about keeping bolts and so forth corrosion free? removing corrosion and rust? Dealing with aging wire connections? And things reaching the end of their normal service life?

More means you are more a "slave" to all of the above. It's part of the appeal and the down side. We want to sail not to be maintaining.... less to maintain.... more time to sail. This seems self evident.

The thought of having so much more to "manage" and clean and fix and so forth at some point becomes a burden and outweighs or takes a bite into the "comfort" and speed advantages.

How much sooner does a 55' footer arrive on a 1000 mile passage than 40'? And aside from the risk factor or being offshore... what's the hurry for a couple sailing around the world? I can think of one... weather.
I went from 38' to 54' and did not experience a big increase in work load.

On the old boat as well as the new one, there was ALWAYS something which needed cleaning, maintaining, or fixing. The new boat has teak decks, so keeping the deck clean is quite a bit less work than keeping the deck clean on the old one (plain fiberglass decks which needed a lot of scrubbing). Vacuuming the interior is not a big amount of time, and when the other sleeping cabins are not in use I don't vacuum them every day (or week).

On a larger boat, many people (including me) are more likely to have more people on board, just because it is far more comfortable when there's space for them, and with more people on board, there are more people to share the work.

Running a large boat on a long passage with 4 or 5 decent sailors on board is far more pleasant and far easier, than single or double handing a smaller boat. That's about the manpower required to have a reasonable amount of time off watch to rest and be fresh, and like that you can stay at sea for nearly unlimited amounts of time without stress. The greater speed and daily runs just compounds that advantage, making it far easier to make long distances in a larger boat.
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Old 02-06-2016, 06:19   #147
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I see this a lot as well. Nothing is sadder than a crew stuck in port awaiting a spare part while the the deserted islands with the beautiful clear water lie just over the horizon...
For all boats, big and small complex and simple it is worth thinking about what breakdowns are likely to see you stuck in port. Back up systems, spare parts and installing oversized gear are strategies that are worth considering for vital systems.
I really liked the sailboat I saw on the picture you joined with your answer & I was hopping to see more of it but when I went to the link you offered I discovered a different -although most interesting- sailboat. Where can I find info on the sailboat with the 18 on the side of the hull ??? Thanks
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Old 02-06-2016, 06:34   #148
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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I went from 38' to 54' and did not experience a big increase in work load.

On the old boat as well as the new one, there was ALWAYS something which needed cleaning, maintaining, or fixing. The new boat has teak decks, so keeping the deck clean is quite a bit less work than keeping the deck clean on the old one (plain fiberglass decks which needed a lot of scrubbing). Vacuuming the interior is not a big amount of time, and when the other sleeping cabins are not in use I don't vacuum them every day (or week).

On a larger boat, many people (including me) are more likely to have more people on board, just because it is far more comfortable when there's space for them, and with more people on board, there are more people to share the work.

Running a large boat on a long passage with 4 or 5 decent sailors on board is far more pleasant and far easier, than single or double handing a smaller boat. That's about the manpower required to have a reasonable amount of time off watch to rest and be fresh, and like that you can stay at sea for nearly unlimited amounts of time without stress. The greater speed and daily runs just compounds that advantage, making it far easier to make long distances in a larger boat.

The thread was for short handed cruising and long distance sailing. But sure people like to spread out and live big. As an architect I've designed 15,000 sf homes for a family of 4 and a live in maid to clean it all. It's a stunning house but they have gone way past need to luxury.

The answer is probably where several curves intersect... not simply bigger is better as a few imply and smaller is worse. This is an interesting subject because the various curves... have different "weights" for different sailors... storing wine, cheese and beer is not a consideration for me... but it is for others.
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Old 02-06-2016, 07:15   #149
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

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. . . It's a stunning house but they have gone way past need to luxury.. . .
Can you define the border between "need" and "luxury"? I can't -- not for a house, and not for a boat.

I have a friend with a 60 meter motor yacht. To him, my 54-footer is way less than what he thinks of as bare minimum needs (to his credit, though, he doesn't complain when he's on board my boat).

To some people, 60 meters is cramped and not cool.

Looking at it from the other end -- some people with Flickas think that a 32' cruiser is decadence and total overkill.

There's no end to this -- it is really totally subjective. To each his own -- according to his taste and budget. In general -- "too big" is usually a few feet bigger than whatever you have yourself, and "too small" is a few feet less.


Quote:
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". . . storing . . . beer is not a consideration for me . . . "
Eeeek!
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Old 02-06-2016, 07:20   #150
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Re: Monohull sailboat size for shorthanded cruising

This thread is all about these "complex systems" and "electrical things that will break" and "sails too big to use without hydraulics" and "how will i be able to vacuum my 60 ft. boat"

Sail out into an ocean until you hit bad weather, and let me know if you would rather be on a 29 ft. sloop or a 55 ft. cutter rigged center cockpit.
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